Church Business
“We shouldn’t run the church like a business,” The man said.
I found myself agreeing and disagreeing. It’s true that we shouldn’t think in terms of dollars and cents, judging effectiveness by cards filled out and people sitting calmly in the pews when the service starts. In that way, our churches aren’t businesses. We are in the work of helping people, not lining our pockets and stroking our egos. We shouldn’t have to make money to have church. If a church can’t afford a building they can meet in a school or home or community center. If they can’t afford to properly pay for a full staff they need to evaluate what the staff is there for. If the mercy funds end up getting used on the pastors, some questions need to be asked.
No, church isn’t business.
But in the same vein, there’s a lot that churches can learn from how businesses are run. Business is necessarily ruthless when it comes to trimming the fat. People need to be qualified for positions, not just available. A church secretary that gossips and files her nails is still thanked for her ministry (what ministry, really?) when a business secretary that ignored her duties to gossip would be fired. So there are things to be learned there, certainly.
And then there’s a much, much bigger lesson. That lesson is that you don’t make a product and then try to figure out how to convince people to buy it- not unless you want to lose money. You find out what people want to buy, and you give it to them. Sometimes church people get uncomfortable with hearing that ,because they say that we shouldn’t change Christ’s message just to fill pews. I agree, wholeheartedly. I also think that Christ’s message IS what people want. The problem isn’t the message, the problem is the way we go about sharing it. We shouldn’t be thinking in terms of filling pews,we should be thinking in terms of getting out in our communities and really helping people. We shouldn’t think in terms of inviting people to the building to hear the message, we should go out into the world and invite people into our homes and lives. We shouldn’t be dragging people back to home base so that the pastor can give them the gospel, WE should be giving them the gospel. The problem with church is that the message never seems to impact our lifestyles and thus our culture. People don’t know what they are buying because it’s not obvious what we are selling. If we tell people that the Christian life will bring them vibrancy and hope we should be able to demonstrate that by showing them our own lives.
I think we know what the right product is, we’ve even got the right wording on the package, but the package is empty.
That needs to change.
littletiger replied:
I agree with you - one of the things my pastor says at the end of each service is, “Church is not over - go out and be the church to the rest of the world.” And to me that means living out my faith daily and sharing Christ’s message through my actions as well as my words.
April 15, 2008 at 1:46 pm. Permalink.
amberfireinus replied:
I have something to add on this subject. Its kind of funny, sad and thought provoking all at the same time.
I have a very close friend who is an Orthodox Priest. One day we were talking, and he was complaining about his health benefits policy and how the church (his employer) owed him for back expenses and that this was not an inconsiderable sum of money.
I was kind of shocked. I don’t know why I would be shocked that the church would pay things like medical insurance - but the normalness of his job kinda was brought home. He complained about pay, and about things promised that weren’t given.
I said, “Wait a minute.. you work for the church! They don’t do things like that do they? I mean aren’t they above all that?”. He just laughed at me. He is an employee like everyone else. He has to feed his children, put them through college and manage his household on the income that the church provides (which is small). His wife thank God is a lawyer and is the major breadwinner therefore they have a little extra.
He told me how many people he’s constantly having over for dinner from the church. I wondered with the expense of food how the heck he affords it??? Often there are visitors from other churches he doesn’t even know who come and stay in his home.
The church needs to be run like a business in certain ways. It needs to manage its finances in a positive way, and needs to provide for its people.
April 15, 2008 at 3:07 pm. Permalink.
shush replied:
Littletiger: Thanks! And that’s a very inspirational way to end a service, I’ll have to make a note of that.
Amber: You make a good point. Churches need to be true to their word, especially with their clergy. I know a guy who was dropped from youth leadership when his church realized they wouldn’t be able to pay him, which was a painful experience for all involved. It’s my opinion they should have cut other funds to keep the youth pastorship as a paid position, but the truth is that small church bodies (say, less than three hundred) can’t always afford to have paid staff. The situation you’re talking about, with health insurance and other paid benefits, is a relatively rare one in my experience. Of course, I’m a small town girl!
People have odd ideas of what a pastor’s life is like. I know of people who talk about pastors “fleecing” their congregations so that they can drive Mercedes, but most pastors I know, even full time ones who visit with the congregation and host events and pay out of pocket for expenses, are lucky to make 30 to 40k a year. It’s a rough job to choose, it’s a hard one, it generally doesn’t pay well and most pastors work other jobs to make ends meet. It’s hard and it’s sad, but it’s also tradition.
The disciples were all tradesmen, after all. They didn’t subside off of charity alone. The priests of Israel did live off of charity, though. Part of the sacrifices made to God were for the sustainment of the priesthood. So I feel torn between, “God set up this system” and “The disciples set up this system.”
Which, of course, is a post in and of itself. But I agree with you- the church should always keep it’s word.
April 15, 2008 at 8:37 pm. Permalink.
amberfireinus replied:
Well, an Orthodox Priest is more akin to a Catholic one than to a minister of a christian church. Only difference is that he can get married and have kids. The Orthodox Church like the Catholic church is a huge corporation. It simply has employees. You get hired to do the job. It comes with a salary, sometimes a house (rectory) and medical benefits. He told me that all of the priests he knew had working professional wives so that the family didn’t starve. How pathetic is that???
In fact, my friend ended up being the Mr. Mom character to his children because his schedule allowed it and his wife’s being a lawyer didn’t.
I think that done properly, a cleric of any type is a more than full time job. At least how my friend does it, it is. He is on call 24/7 for any death, any accident, any need of his congragation and community. He even gave up allowing himself more than one glass of wine because he never wanted to be caught where he couldnt be the best at service to others.
Most of the complaints you hear about the Merc driving Pastors/ministers/clergy are always the holy roller born again christian sect. Rarely, and I do mean rarely you find one in the Catholic Church. It just makes me shake my head….
April 16, 2008 at 5:41 am. Permalink.
jaklumen replied:
We have a lay ministry, so much of what you describe is foreign to me. I do note, however, that there is much observation and scrutiny of the finances of the LDS Church. Time magazine’s article Kingdom Come is a very particular example, especially as the cover of the issue it was featured in read “Mormons, Inc.”
Interestingly enough, the first thing that the article discusses is how we set up our welfare system. A handful of articles by other news media services on the topic abound, which I have not tracked down to cite here at the moment.
I’m not sure what the sentiment is concerning Salt Lake and LDS Church headquarters in general, but I think I can successfully state that we run like a non-profit, at best. While general leaders in Salt Lake are compensated for their time, we generally point out that they must rely upon pensions, Social Security, etc. for a means of living, and that the compensation is not sufficient alone by any means.
we should go out into the world and invite people into our homes and lives
Ask full-time LDS missionaries what their best tool for finding people to teach, and the overwhelming answer will be ‘referral’. Although I could cite statistics, I think most will just tell you that ‘tracting’– going door to door– yields far, far fewer opportunities than a referral from a member, more specifically within the very context you describe.
Having said that, I don’t look at church as a “social club”. I ran into this attitude sometimes starting out college in Southern Idaho. But I wholeheartedly agree that social activities are part of the invitation into our homes and lives.
we should be able to demonstrate that by showing them our own lives
A frequent topic of discussion among LDS members is “living the example.” I’ve heard numerous anecdotes and stories where a good example brought sharing, respect, and even conversion, while a bad example brought estrangement, disillusion, and resentment. We are often reminded that our actions will speak far louder than our words; more specifically, our particular scriptures read that we must watch our thoughts, words, and deeds– and such is written within a broader context of service: “…when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.” (Mosiah 2:17)
I know of people who talk about pastors “fleecing” their congregations so that they can drive Mercedes
I have heard some claim that they have witnessed discussions of “fleecing”. One told me that he happened to be privy to a conversation on how to use guilt and manipulation to get congregations to offer more.
I don’t know of any instances myself, but we do have one word for it: priestcraft.
Book of Mormon example:
“And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people” (Alma 1:3)
“But Alma said unto him: Behold, this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among this people. And behold, thou art not only guilty of priestcraft, but hast endeavored to enforce it by the sword; and were priestcraft to be enforced among this people it would prove their entire destruction.” (Alma 1:12)
I would agree that such instances tend to be rare, or at least carefully hidden, but such sentiments, to my mind, would indicate it still exists.
Back to the point of church ministry being often more of a full-time job, @amberfireinus:
I think that done properly, a cleric of any type is a more than full time job.
I hear many stories of the sacrifices LDS women face, and make, when their husbands are called to be bishops. Again, they are not paid one whit, but are essentially on-call 24/7. Quite a few have told me they have fielded calls in the wee hours of the morning from members, indicating their job extends far beyond church meeting times, individual appointments, etc.
I could go on and on about examples from my own faith, but I am indeed aware (sometimes painfully so) that what I have written overall, combined with your own observations of those of my faith that you know more in person will speak volumes more than what I could ever write specifically here.
April 17, 2008 at 6:25 am. Permalink.
M54 replied:
Perhaps the title to this thread should be changed “Gossip”.
I am a business owner and consider myself a disciple of Jesus the Christ.
I have been in business since March 1985 (BC). After I came to know the Lord I joined a group of other Christian Business Owners. We received materials from a nationaly recognized organization and held weekly meetings that helped us learn to run our businesses on Biblical principles.
I take exception to the original poster’s ascertions that all businesses are run like a bunch of cut throats. One of the worst things a christian business owner can do is to treat their employees in an un-Christ-like manner.
One of the worst things a “man of the cloth” can do is gossip about his employer. One of the worst things a friend of a “man of the cloth” can do is listen to his gossip.
But as far as should churches be run as businesses. I don’t think it’s a black and white issue. Just remember “the borrowere becomes slave to the lender”.
May 6, 2008 at 8:31 pm. Permalink.