God’s Mercy, God’s Wrath
On a previous post I received several comments stating that the Gospels do not spend much time discussing God’s love, and plenty of time “warning people of God’s wrath.”
The gist of those comments was that warning people out of Hell is a perfectly justifiable and even Christ-like thing to do.
Hm… let’s think… okay, no need to think. I agree and also disagree, and this post will mark my disagreement. (I need to research more before I explain my agreement, but that’s another post entirely.)
Did Jesus talk about God’s wrath? Well, he used vibrantly harsh language with the Pharisees, but using those passages as a justification of the fire’n'brimstone theology is a mistaken enterprise unless the people you are condemning are hypocrites and religious, as the pharisees were. Those passages don’t justify using such language with unbelievers. There is Jesus’s slightly sarcastic retort to the “rich young ruler” who asked him how to get into heaven- but that was a retort meant to chastise a young man’s very selfish interest in salvation- again, the harsh language there is only justification for similar behavior if made under similar circumstances. It still doesn’t justify leaving a rude blog comment for a total stranger. There are several parables that deal with harsh consequences, like the parable of the ten virgins and the parable of the three servants- but both of those parables while symbolically similar to a heaven/hell analogy are actually parables not of eternal consequence, but parables of earthly consequences. They did bad things in this life and received the consequences thereof in this life, and were I to preach a sermon from that style of parable it would not be on of eternal consequence, but of warning the people that living selfishly has immediate consequence, today, right now.
Throughout the New Testament one sees very colorful language, again and again. Jesus talks about people being thrown out of the city where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, something which to Jews of his day was not so much language of eternal consequence but instead language that mirrored the language of prophets such as Isaiah and Hosea, prophets who warned not of Hell but of Israel’s return to Exile, an earthly judgment that was consequences of their earthly actions, so again- such language is not justification for telling someone that they are burning in Hell.
And as for the gospels not being full of language of God’s love… well… Jesus may not have spoken about God’s love, but he lived it. His actions were full of mercy. He told people that their sins were forgiven. He offered himself up as a sacrifice. When he stood outside the city and famously uttered those words, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how I have longed to gather you as a hen gathers her young…” The image that paints is of a mother hen gathering her young under her wings and protecting them from flames, something that mother hens are known to do at the cost of their own lives. Picture the yellow young chicks in their mother’s charred carcass, their future lives made possible by the sacrifice of their mother. Jesus meant to make himself an offering in our stead, and that’s what he did.
“The Gospels” the commenters chorus sings, “The Gospels”…
Well, let’s talk about the GOSPEL. Gospel, the word, means “good news”, the gospel that jews of that time were familiar with were heralds calling out proclamations such as the birth of a new Caesar or heralding national holidays. This Gospel, Our Gospel, is not about the birth of a new king but the birth of a new era, an era in which we are freed from the curse of sin and death. An era in which Christ’s resurrection on the third day symbolizes not just our resurrection from the dead but the birth of a new creation, a perfect creation, God’s kingdom not in heaven but here, now, on the earth. In the New Testament when you see the words “the Kingdom of Heaven” they are speaking not of a location, but of a people.
Us.
You and I.
That is the Gospel- not that we are saved from Hell but that we are redeemed, here on Earth. That we are freed from the cycle of sin and sacrifice and able to make with our own hands a new creation, that we ourselves are born again into a new promise. A promise not of judgment, but of love.
So shall we warn people away from hell? I think not. Because I know that when I here the Gospel called out I feel my heart crying out in response, with tears of pure joy. I tremble in awe at the possibility that these two scrawny hands are a part of the kingdom. I rejoice in the fact that I am freed from the cycle of sin and consequence, that I have redemption, here and now, that I can live a life of love and forgiveness offered by myself and God unto others, a life I would be powerless to live on my own.
The Gospel, to me, is about this life. The one I am living now.
That is God’s mercy.
God’s wrath? That seems to be reserved for those who claim to love him and behave otherwise. Let’s save that language for the ones who have truly earned it’s use. The Pharisees.
Sane Christian replied:
You are correct the gospel is about life. It is about how to live a life that is Godly. To do that one must forsake a lot of things.
There are plenty of things that I would like to do, but don’t. Sin is fun that’s why people sin. Defending sin is not in the gospels. Any of them. Jesus didn’t defend sin, I will not defend sin.
I see that you have ‘lesbian Christians’ on your blog roll. (I found your site through Lesbian Said Whats blog roll) So although you talk about sin you condone sin. You support a life style choice that is against all that God stands for.
God has asked me to witness to homosexuals. I will do that in His truth. Gods truth is you cannot say you love God and choose to live a life of blatant sin.
To live the life God promises and teaches us to live you must give up the sin that you love. For many it is loving someone of the same gender. That is not love, that is an unnatural Satanic love.
Gods love is pure and just. It is a love that sets free, and is redeeming. It is a love like no other.
People assume that because the gospels talk about Gods love they can do what ever they want, and live how they want and it doesn’t damage their souls.
There are over 162 references to hell in the New Testament. Jesus warned people through out of the consequences of their choices. Their defilement of his love would lead them to hell.
All love isn’t Gods love.
June 8, 2008 at 11:18 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Sane Christian: I would appreciate it if in the future you would directly address the content of a particular post, instead of redirecting the thread of the comments to something other than that of which I was speaking. I appreciate the fact that you feel strongly about the issue of homosexuality, but I would caution you to not assume something about what I do or don’t “condone” solely based off of who is on my blog roll, as the “neighborhood” links are not necessarily friends of mine or blogs I suggest people visit, but rather a mixture of people whose blogs I read for various reasons and also the people who comment here regularly. So do I condone everything they say, carte blanche? No.
That being said, I think that the author of Lesbian said What? is a lovely girl who is asking a lot of questions about spirituality in general and Christ in particular, and I hope that over time she and I can develop a friendship and I can be a good example to her of what a holy Christian woman does and says. Do I think that I should cut a friendship off at the roots or take a combative stance against her based solely off of the fact that she is in love with another woman? No, as if I told her “you are a sinner!” I would lose the opportunity to get to know her and for her to get to know me, and through that lost opportunity she’d also lose an aspect of seeing the face of Christ through my example. As I said, I think she’s lovely. She’s kind, thoughtful, devoted, intelligent, and someone who if I knew her in real life I’d love to have over for dinner. The fact that she loves a woman does not unmake everything good about her.
If you’d like to know more of the particulars of why I do not call homosexuality out as a sin (very different from acknowledging the truth of what the Bible says- it says what it says, I don’t argue that the Bible portrays the act of sex between same genders as sin) you can read the following posts, and please comment there rather than here:
The Church and Homosexuals (The story of a young boy I worked with when I was a youth pastor, and some foundational explanations of where I think the Church goes wrong with how it relates to gays)
What if I were gay?: A post that speculates on how my life may have gone had I requited the affections of a lesbian friend
Cart first- horse second?: A post explaining how we must garner relationships that allow discipling before we can call people to account about their sins
Choice in Sexuality: A post discussing how much we can or can’t choose how our sexuality manifests itself
PLEASE note that I never say “sex between two people of the same gender is NOT SIN”. I simply say that we must be evenhanded, fair, and allow GOD to judge rather than humanity.
I hope you have the time to read and consider at least some of my posts, and refrain from jumping to conclusions in the future.
(And to all of my gay/lesbian readers who read this comment, please don’t misinterpret it as condemnation. You know I cherish your readership, support, and friendship. I <3 my people!)
June 8, 2008 at 11:39 pm. Permalink.
Sane Christian replied:
I get the sense from your reply that I have offended you in some way?
I sincerely apologize for any thing that I have done that may have offended you.
We are on the same side. We both want people to come to know the love of Christ.
I will be more conscious of the topic and post on what you have written.
Sane
June 9, 2008 at 1:37 am. Permalink.
amberfireinus replied:
Oooook then. So back to this Post..
Lindsey, honestly you inspire me. You give me hope that there are Christians that know the teachings of Jesus. My whole life has been filled with those who don’t. This post like so many is a breath of fresh air.
I can honestly tell you hand on heart that this is one of the most right on “sermons” I have ever experienced.
Your approach is so interesting. I have said before you bring the teachings into today’s world with passion and understanding but most of all, the compassion of Christ.
You DO lead us all by example. You to me are the epitome of what Jesus taught. Your strength, humor, humility and humanity shines through in each and every post.
If you were to open a church, I would be one of your first attendees. You are one of the only Christians I would ever say that to.
Keep up the good work… spreading the “GOOD NEWS”.
June 9, 2008 at 1:46 am. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Sane: I was a little put off by you, but to be honest I’d already seen comments of yours elsewhere (lesbiansaidwhat‘s blog) and was predisposed to not like you. lesbiansaidwhat is struggling to embrace the church, and unfortunately people who attack her sexuality make it hard for her to feel comfortable enough to get into relationships with other Christians. If people like her can never form church relationships they can never be discipled, and if they can’t be discipled, what hope does the Bride of Christ really have?
So, yes, I was a little offended because you hurt someone I care about. And your comment read to me as a little confrontational, which I didn’t particularly appreciate as I am a stranger to you, and I believe the right to call someone on their sins is earned, not inherent.
But we can get past this initial crack in the sidewalk and hopefully come to a fuller dialog. After all, as you pointed out, both of us want people to know God. And that is what matters.
June 9, 2008 at 2:20 am. Permalink.
e2tc replied:
Umm. Can I go grab my concordance and get back to you?
Seriously. there is a *lot* about judgment in the NT, and in the Gospels. But – as you rightly point out – context is vital to understanding these portions of Scripture; ditto for those that speak of God’s mercy, grace and love.
there’s a marvelous trilogy on Christ’s parables, written by Robert Farrar Capon. Here’s a link to book o. 3. The 1st 2 volumes are a no-brainer for most bookstores, but book 3 is another story. Yet all 3 books are part of the same story, if you see what I’m getting at… either way, highly recommended!
June 9, 2008 at 2:22 am. Permalink.
Sane Christian replied:
Lindsey,
I won’t get into Lesbian Said What. I was just stating how I came to your blog and found the route interesting.
Agreed we have the same mission.
Sane
June 9, 2008 at 2:30 am. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
e2c: *lol* Oh, I know. It kills me when people say “there are 100 some references to Hell in the NT” and I have to reply, “actually, there are five different words translated as Hell, so that isn’t a fully accurate statement, as it may be a reference to the grave, to death, to a specific location, to a vague afterlife, or to a symbol of Greek or Roman mythology which we ought not claim as our own.”
I’m not really a scholar, but my dad is a pastor and I attend a significant number of leadership meetings, so I feel like I have enough chops to at least spark a discussion.
Who knows. I could be wrong.
June 9, 2008 at 2:34 am. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Amber: Thank you, really. Thank you so much. It’s always an honor to hear that I’ve made an impact on someone.
Sane: It is an interesting serious of events that have ended in this conversation. God pulls strange strings sometimes, but he has his reasons.
June 9, 2008 at 2:36 am. Permalink.
Stephanie replied:
Lindsey-You make me wanna cry sometimes! Feeling all mushy over here.
I really enjoy reading your posts because of the compassion and sensitivity mixed with your straight forwardness.
Sane Christian- I truly hope that you find more compassion, gentleness and mercy in your call to witness.
I don’t feel that you have witnesed much of anything to me with your comments, especially not the love of Christ.
“That is not love, that is an unnatural Satanic love.”
You have the right to believe what you want however, in your call to witness to people, comments like that one, plus a few others made to a complete stranger, for all other strangers to read, will not do much of anything but push people further away from anything good.
Christ called me with compassion, he beckoned me with love, with gentleness and with tenderness. I don’t believe I would have came to Him any other way.
Peace.
June 9, 2008 at 4:53 am. Permalink.
Sane Christian replied:
Stephanie,
While I don’t presume to know you or how you came to Christ I’m just glad you came. God knows what you need and knew what you needed to come to Him. Not all people come to know Christ through compassion.
The sin of homosexuality is a very different sin in how it affects the body and mind. It is just a sin to God and he can heal the person and restore them to full grace. But have you ever spoken to some one who is mired in homosexuality?
Homosexuality is such a sin that it blinds them spiritually and mentally. Ones body is a temple and homosexuality utterly destroys the temple. Mentally the confusion is unbelievable. Talk to a non-believing homosexual.
They don’t know what love is, they need a reality of what the rejection of Gods love leads to.
June 9, 2008 at 5:08 am. Permalink.
e2tc replied:
Sane, i know you mean well, also that you believe all of the things you are saying.
But – for the sake of kindness, and that of Christ’s love, please… I would ask you not to speak of others as if they lived in absolute depravity.
Let the love of Christ compel you, rather than fear of the devil. Please.
June 9, 2008 at 5:24 am. Permalink.
Stephanie replied:
Oh Sane-
You have insulted about half the people on Lindsey’s blogroll by your blanket, generalized statements.
I do believe you mean well too but again, this is NOT the way to witness to anyone and I think this is much of what Lindsey has been talking about.
You asked me if I had ever talked with a “non believing homosexual”. Yes, I have, just as I have with a non believing heterosexual.
Sane, have you ever talked to a Christ centered homosexual?
June 9, 2008 at 5:45 am. Permalink.
Sane Christian replied:
Stephanie,
There is no such thing as a Christ centered homosexual.
We must agree to disagree on somethings.
Sane
June 9, 2008 at 6:46 am. Permalink.
amberfireinus replied:
Sane – let me ask you… I say these quotes often.. did you get to the part in the bible where it says:
Judge not lest ye be judged..
and another favorite…
Let he who casts the first stone be without sin…
Or.. Judgement is mine alone says the LORD.
Having the need for superiority is not “Sane”.
Each of us alone face God. We alone stand for our sins and represent our life to him. We pay for our crimes then. Don’t take the mantle of God, for you will find yourself judged harshly by him.
June 9, 2008 at 7:00 am. Permalink.
wvhillcountry replied:
Lindsey, a beautifully written and thoughtful post.
” living selfishly has immediate consequence, today, right now.” How very true, even if those consequences are hidden such as losing the chance to help a fellow human being.
“So shall we warn people away from hell? I think not. Because I know that when I here the Gospel called out I feel my heart crying out in response, with tears of pure joy.” Fear can be a powerful motivator. I think of the parable of the sower and the seeds on rocky ground that spring up quickly. I think that is how fear of eternal damnation works. For example, someone says that I am going to hell. I don’t want to go to hell so I repent. But there is nothing there to sustain me.
But like the seeds that fall on good fertile soil that grow and produce fruit, if there is compassion and genuine love and concern, then much growth will occur.
Personally I would much rather spend more time cultivating one love based relationship than 1,000 fear based ones that have little to no chance of producing fruit.
June 9, 2008 at 11:38 am. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Stephanie: I just feel so honored by the response I am getting. Truly. Thank you.
Sane Christian: No such thing as a Christ Centered homosexual? How about a homosexual who felt called to live a life of holiness, left his gay lover, married a lesbian woman, and the two of them forsook all others to learn to love each other?
See, the thing is, I know a man who did just that, and when he talks about homosexuality he talks not about being “mired in sin” but of the church’s need to be compassionate, have empathy, to allow gay people to attend and to demonstrate not God’s judgment but God’s redeeming grace. Let’s talk about all of the times that Christ told someone to go and sin no more. He did it to the woman caught in adultery- but he did it AFTER showing God’s grace by allowing her to live. The law was to stone her- and by allowing her life Christ himself disobeyed the law. He showed grace to the Samaritan woman by speaking with her, an outcast, a known sinner. He showed grace to the lame man he healed- but he told that man to pick up his mat and walk, again ordering him to disobey the law while at the same time telling him to sin no more.
Christ’s life showed freedom not from the law but from legalism, compassion, empathy, unity… You, to me, seem to be a bit legalistic.
June 9, 2008 at 11:40 am. Permalink.
Stephanie replied:
Sane-
You are so very wrong. There are Christ centered homosexuals, as well as Christ centered heterosexuals, non believing homosexuals and labels go on and on and on. I’m confident that Christ will reveal that to you.
I believe that once we remove the labels and titles that WE have placed on one another and we start looking at one another as PEOPLE (as Jesus does), MOST times we will find something so very different, but only if we are willing to do that.
Paul was willing to do that with the Gentiles. Remember the dream he had about the clean and unclean animals? God told him to stop calling his people unclean.
Perhaps the witness call you have to homosexuals is to investigate, learn and witness that not all homosexuals are confused or non-believing or blind. Yes, maybe some, but not all. Many actually do know what love is.
But the sad thing is, unless you are willing to look at someone who is gay without labeling them as sinful, blind and confused, you will not see anything different than the ugly picture you have painted of that person.
I believe that we could all learn from one another, that we should be building each other up, instead of tearing each other down. I believe iron sharpens iron and we can learn from one another, me from you and you from me, a Christ centered lesbian.
And then again, with that being said maybe the barrier will remain between you and I, with nothing accomplished and we will just agree to disagree.
I truly wish you the best with your witnessing and sincerly hope and pray that you find different ways of doing just that before you hurt many people with your witnessing techniques.
Peace.
June 9, 2008 at 3:11 pm. Permalink.
Sane Christian replied:
Lindsey,
That person then is no longer a homosexual, but a sinner saved by grace, and set free by the blood of Christ. That can be the life that God can give to all homosexuals. Perfect example. Thank you.
As for the other examples you gave those were all people who were ashamed of their sin. People who were seeking after forgiveness and a higher understanding of Jesus and who he was.
e2c,
The love of Christ is what leads me. It is the love that he has for me, and for all people that leads me to tell His truth.
Stephanie,
I agree we can all learn from one another. I learn a lot from people who are proud of their sins. I see that wanting to accept sin so badly that people find ways to justify it with Gods Holy Word.
Amberfire,
We could quote scripture all day to back our views. The bible is simple with out Christ no one enters into heaven. That isn’t judgement that is truth.
Truth is if anyone is in Christ they are a new creation. New meaning nothing of the old.
Someone can not say they love God and continue in their old life. They are liars. I don’t say that, God does.
We are messengers meant to carry Gods word to the world. Gods word doesn’t say don’t warn people about the consequences of their sin.
That’s not judging someone that is telling them the truth.
June 10, 2008 at 6:20 am. Permalink.
e2tc replied:
That person then is no longer a homosexual, but a sinner saved by grace, and set free by the blood of Christ.
but that’s what all of us are – it’s really not about sexual orientation per se. What about someone who struggles with temptation to commit adultery? Or who feels *very* inclined to hit people, or to cheat on taxes, or to resort to alcohol and other drugs to mask deep hurts and personal problems?
But that’s not what Linsdey was getting at here, I’m thinking. Looks as if she’s planning another post where issues of this sort can be discussed.
June 10, 2008 at 5:58 pm. Permalink.
Stephanie replied:
Sane-
“I learn a lot from people who are proud of their sins.”
Now Sane, you really should be nice. It really is rude and rather mean spirited to insinuate that I or anyone else on here is proud of their sins.
You and I may have a difference of opinions, but I don’t believe that calls for either one of us to start being rude.
Peace
June 10, 2008 at 6:41 pm. Permalink.
Nick replied:
Hi Lindsey,
Wonderful post as usual.
I always get the feeling that when Jesus talks about hell, more often than not he’s frustrating the expectations of those among his listeners who belong to the religious elite, ie those who believed that stringent observance of the law merited entrance to the kingdom. To hear that the rich man in the parable (materially blessed and therefore clearly elect) was sent summarily to hell, while scabrous Lazarus was scooped up into heaven, would have struck them as scandalous. At any rate, the standard evangelical doctrine of hell can’t be derived from the teachings of Jesus. He’s much more nuanced.
I see love-aplenty in the gospels. It’s never gaudy, either. Apart from the biggies (John 3:16!) we also find heartbreaking touches of affection: ‘he looked at him and he loved him’ in Mark 10, and ‘fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s pleasure to give you the kingdom’ in Luke 12. ‘You are worth more than many sparrows’ in Matt 10 / Luke 12… And if anyone doubts the effect that Jesus’ love had on people, look at Mary’s anointing of Jesus’ feet… Look at how Peter acts in John 21:7 after the resurrection, leaping from his boat and running to the shore, his awful denial forgotten. This is the Jesus that I find irresistible.
The homosexuality debate seems to cut to the heart of many theological problems, so although it’s emotive, it’s right to discuss it. I must say that the debate here is pretty darned amicable compared to most places… But it is a tricky issue.
My own position is 99% intuition, and I couldn’t defend it in an argument; but I’m convinced that homosexuals don’t choose their orientation, and that acting on one’s natural desire for love, sex and companionship in the context of an orientation not consciously selected is – if sinful at all (I’d strongly dispute the standard interpretations of ‘malakoi’ and ‘arsenokoitai’) – of a different moral order entirely to, say, deeds calculated to hurt. The smallest act of malice is far worse in God’s eyes than the biggest act of homosexual love or passion. I’ll stand by that on Judgement Day.
June 10, 2008 at 9:58 pm. Permalink.
Nick replied:
For some reason my close-bracket after ‘malakoi’ and ‘arsenokoitai’ turned into a smiley face with a wink as soon as I pressed ‘reply’.
Not sure that could have been less appropriate.
June 10, 2008 at 9:59 pm. Permalink.
Stephanie replied:
Nick,
Very well said. Nice blog too!
June 11, 2008 at 1:52 am. Permalink.
M54 replied:
Sane, I’m just getting around to reading your posts.
Man, it’s guys who bring the Gosple like you do here that made me not want any part of it! It is one thing to tell someone about the love of Jesus and what He has done to provide salvation for each and everyone of us but man if you hit them in the forehead with your bible…
You say: “God has asked me to witness to homosexuals. I will do that in His truth. Gods truth is you cannot say you love God and choose to live a life of blatant sin.”
You mean God’s truth as you understand it in your small human-like mind.
How about this 1 Corinthians 13: 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
Sane, if you are TRUELY CALLED BY GOD to witness to homosexuals… does it sound like 1 Corenthians 13:4 or have you gotten Sane in there a bit?
June 13, 2008 at 10:46 pm. Permalink.