You’re the one with the problem
This is a theme that has been coming up in my life often in the past few days. Not that “you”, specifically, dubious reader, are the one with the problem. No, just the idea that there is a problem in the first place, and if there is such a problem- IT’S NOT MINE!
Let’s take a walk together. Imagine that there is a mother and a daughter, fighting. The daughter wants to peirce her ears and the mother doesn’t. The mother keeps arguing about the reasons the daughter shouldn’t make this decision. The daughter is too young. Will she care for the piercings properly? Why does she want them anyway? Is it truly about the aesthetic, or fitting in? The mother argues, and argue, trying to convince the daughter that there is a problem to be fixed, and it belongs to the daughter… then comes the revelation. It isn’t about the daughter’s responsibility- not in full. It is also about the mother’s fear of her daughter growing. So the mother relaxes her hold, let’s the daughter grow… and they both realize that ear piercing isn’t such a big deal, after all.
Or imagine a married couple, arguing heatedly about the fact that the husband bought himself a new gaming system without properly consulting the wife. The wife tells him he’s selfish, he never thinks of her, he always follows the short term to satisfy his desires. The husband tells her that she’s too controlling, she’s too petty, she always wants it to be about her and sometimes it’s got to be about him doing what he wants. “You’re the one with the problem”, they keep telling each other. But whose problem is it? And what is the problem? Because they both do have very serious problems, just not the ones that they are accusing each other of. In this case the wife has a problem with voicing what she really needs. She feels uninvolved in his life and his choices, she feels ignored and rejected. And he fights back and is accusatory without truly weighing what she says. If he were less defensive, he might hear the subtext to his words, he might be humbled, and they may be able to have a more intimate relationship.
Let’s step it up a notch, to the Christian man who is protesting outside an abortion clinic. He holds a sign of a mutilated fetus and he yells. He is enraged. Ask him and he would say it is the women walking by who have the problem, it is their fault for making the choice that they are.
But who has the problem? Is it really the girl, the girl who is likely brokenhearted, the girl who just wants all of her pain and her troubles to dissapear? Or is it the man, the man who is raging instead of helping, the man who is yelling instead of listening, the man who has forgotten one of the greatest lessons that Jesus taught?
Don’t pick at other people’s specks until you’ve dealt with your own splinters.
Handle your heart and your sin first. Change the world by changing yourself. Stop struggling, stop fighting, stop raging. Stop pretending that it’s someone else who has the problem. Stop saying “if the homosexuals could stop being so gay everything would be fine.” Stop saying, “if he or she could stop being such a jerk I would learn to love them.” Stop saying, “if the government weren’t such a hopeless cause I would get involved.” Stop saying, “it’s my kids fault for being so difficult” or “it’s my husband’s fault for being so self righteous” or “it’s my pastors fault for not teaching me about the right things.”
It’s you. It’s your actions, your reactions, your perceptions.
Your splinter.
Your problem.
Your choice.
You can change the world, if you can change yourself. If you can’t control yourself, you can’t do anything. It’s really that simple.
So go. Change yourself. Change the world.
jonolan replied:
I wouldn’t necessarily describe infanticide as a “speck”. Once you accept that the Christian man believe that this young woman is directly in route to murder her child, the your problem, my problem, her problem, his problem idea kind of goes out the window.
September 5, 2008 at 1:37 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Jonolan: Let’s say I accept what you say… this man believes he has a moral obligation to prevent that child from being murdered. How does standing there, waving a sign, do that? Wouldn’t it be more effective to talk to the girl and to provide whatever services are necessary to keep the child alive? Give her food if she is hungry, find someone to give her free medical care if she is poor, offer her free room and board if she is facing being kicked out by her parents…
His rage, albeit perhaps “righteous” rage, is still a problem, and if he could deal with his need to act out of anger (albeit “righteous”) and actively pursue a non-embittered way to communicate his feelings and desire to help, he may actually change things.
His problem, while perhaps morally superior to her “problem”, is still a big problem.
September 5, 2008 at 1:45 pm. Permalink.
jonolan replied:
I would be better if provisions such as you describe were already made available to the woman. There’s little enough time for discussion when she’s on her way to have the procedure performed.
Let’s visually twist the scenario a little. What if it’s a Christian man yelling at a young woman who is strangling her toddler? What then? Is it his problem? Is he acting out of anger? If life begins at conception then there’s NO difference between the woman going for an abortion and one who’s killing her toddler.
September 5, 2008 at 2:18 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
jonolan: As sweet as that logic is, it’s lost on me because I don’t believe life begins at conception.
September 5, 2008 at 2:23 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
And I should add that I don’t think that most Christians TRULY believe that, either. If they truly believed that children were being murdered by the thousands, they wouldn’t picket. They would chain themselves to the doors, they would throw themselves under people’s feet, they would try to bar the doctors from entering… I realize that a handful do, and they take their lumps and jail time for it… but what most people do, with the picket lines, is simply to assuage their own consciences. It doesn’t CHANGE anything, and they (or shall I say, “we”?) know it.
September 5, 2008 at 2:31 pm. Permalink.
maji6 replied:
Your right first we have to change ourselves before we can change anyone else. I get your point about protesting too IF abortions wrong then it should be made illegal and society needs to be able to offer help and support to those who are contemplating terminanting a pregnancy.
We need to work on the morals of society.
September 5, 2008 at 2:32 pm. Permalink.
maji6 replied:
..positively
September 5, 2008 at 2:32 pm. Permalink.
jonolan replied:
Ahh…I was working within the presumed internal logic of the Christian abortion protester. Now, if you’re telling me that many or most of them don’t actually believe that life begins at conception then the argument – and theirs against abortion – falls apart.
Once you take that belief out of it, then what you suggest makes perfect sense.
September 5, 2008 at 3:06 pm. Permalink.
mssc54 replied:
Good post. Perhaps if all of these people with “problems” would consider anger management life would be much easier.
September 5, 2008 at 3:11 pm. Permalink.
Kelly replied:
Jonolan: There’s also the fact that people go to abortion clinics for different reasons. Planned Parenthood, for example, also offers the morning after pill and I think have OB/GYN services, too.
So imagine you’re going there for a doctor’s appointment or to get medicine and some guy you don’t even know is running toward you and screaming and waving a sign.
September 5, 2008 at 3:35 pm. Permalink.
Hayden Tompkins replied:
“I would be better if provisions such as you describe were already made available to the woman. There’s little enough time for discussion when she’s on her way to have the procedure performed.”
Free and easily available birth control! Better education! (I am not just talking about sex education – but overall education.) Better foster parents with better tools to help the children they have! More foster parents!
There are programs that will take care of a mother-to-be’s expenses and set up an adoption, so that she doesn’t have to make choices based on fear. I think, Jonolan, that if you feel that passionately about abortion – perhaps you could join one of those programs? Or help out in some way?
Anyway, this was a really great article. You are incredibly on point about the husband/wife thing.
September 5, 2008 at 3:39 pm. Permalink.
jonolan replied:
Hayden,
I was working solely from within the presented scenario and commenting on what I perceived as a bad example of the his problem, her problem position. I’m far less passionate about the issue myself, but have been trying to understand and find the logic of the Christians’ perspective.
You see the one thing I’ve really noticed is that the abortion argument in America isn’t an argument at all; the two sides aren’t arguing the same thing. One side claims it’s a woman’s right; the other side claims it murder. That’s not a real argument.
September 5, 2008 at 3:45 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Jonolan: I understood your position. And I get your confusion, as well. The problem IS that it’s a “my problem, your problem” thing- because everyone has a right to make choices, even if they are bad ones. God gave us that right, and it’s kind of the point. When Christians get self-righteous about wanting to eradicate sin and wanting to prevent gay marriage and prevent abortions and prevent this and that and punish the (ahem) evildoers, they miss the point of Christianity. It’s not about the righteousness of others but our own right hearts before God.
And you’re right, it’s not a real argument. Just like the debate over gay rights isn’t an argument. One side says, “all humans are created equal” and the other says, “but they are gross and we don’t want them to FEEL equal.” It’s no more an argument than a third grader saying that Susie is obviously wrong because she smells weird.
Me, here, I’m trying to elevate the discussion and get people to defend their points rationally. Hopefully that wins me a little respect in your book.
September 5, 2008 at 3:50 pm. Permalink.
jonolan replied:
No, Lindsey, it earns you a lot of respect in my book.
I think we can agree that we are each beholden to our God(s) for ourselves and not others – though Am I my brother’s keeper?” comes with the weight of some very negative biblical references.
Actually your gay marriage reference is and argument. You’re saying one side says all are equal and the other side saying they don’t want equality.
My stance on the abortion argument is that one side says “it’s a woman’s right to choose” and the other side says “abortion is murder.” Since I DOUBT these women are saying they have the right to murder their unborn children, their argument of “choice” doesn’t address the opposition’s argument of “murder.”
It’d be like you saying “I like blue” and my responding “you’re wrong because sparrows fly.” To statements that have no bearing on each other; they’re not even at cross purposes.
September 5, 2008 at 4:52 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Jonolan: Your choice of verses to quote fascinates me, since it was Cain who said “am I my brother’s keeper?” after killing his brother, and thus having already taken responsibility for his brother’s life, and thus earthly whereabouts.
The problem being that we shouldn’t take responsibility for each other and then complain about the outcome of said responsibility, should we? It’s chilling, I think, because it’s so familiar.
God never made us responsible for each other’s righteousness except for in cases where it’s OUR actions that directly cause their downfall. Another example of this would be in Ephesians where Paul talks about food sacrificed to idols, and says that there is no harm in eating it, except in cases where it would cause others to question. So go ahead, unless it becomes a stumbling block to the faith of others.
Today’s Christianity is much more like walking from door to door screaming “DON’T EAT THAT!”
In other words, another misadventure in totally failing to see the point.
September 5, 2008 at 5:00 pm. Permalink.
jonolan replied:
I like your “DON’T EAT THAT” analogy. It seems quite apropos. Modern Christianity – or rather many modern Christians – do seem to have a similarity to the people trying to ban fast food and trans fats.
September 5, 2008 at 5:13 pm. Permalink.
Katherine replied:
This post is fantastic. It would be great if the protestors would set down their signs and offer the resources that women needs to have her child. If you think about it, most protestors have some sort of religious affiliation and most of the women at those clinics are young and/or unmarried and this is the reason for the inability to support a child. But most churches/Christians, instead of helping such a women, tend to shun them for having a child out of wedlock. It just doesn’t make any sense.
Oh, and how have you come to the conclusion that life does not begin at conception? Just curious. I haven’t officially decided what I believe here, but I usually default to conception because it’s the most common belief.
September 5, 2008 at 5:17 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Jonolan: thank you.
Katherine: I am conflicted about what I DO believe- whether “life” begins when the brain begins functioning, or when the child is viable, or when it is born… I don’t know. What I do know is that the chances of a fertilized egg implanting are abysmal- so I don’t believe it begins at fertilization (and neither does anyone else, really- doctors abort eggs that implant in the fallopian tubes without a thought) and that even fertilized eggs that manage to implant have a very low chance of survival. I’m not sure on the numbers- but an implanted egg has something like a one in three or one in five chance of becoming a viable pregnancy. If God truly saw those eggs as sacred life, why wouldn’t he have made it easier for them to become viable pregnancies? Why give a soul to a child who likely won’t survive another eight weeks? The Biblical foundation for a life-at-conception argument consists of very few verses that are easily interpreted as poetic posturing rather than meant to be taken literally, and the verses that best show God’s own opinion, would be Exodus 21:21-23, where it says that if a man hits a pregnant woman and she miscarries, the man is to pay the fine that the woman’s husband demands- thus placing the value of an unborn child not as equal to the value of a born one, but equal to what the parent perceives it to be. The verse continues to say that if there is serious injury (meaning injury to the mother) the rule of “an eye for an eye” applies. These verses are sticky, because while it’s clear what is meant in the original language, most interpretations are painfully vague.
In any case, I’m conflicted, honestly, I just know that I don’t think life begins at conception, and people need to seek out what they feel God wants from them for themselves.
September 5, 2008 at 5:32 pm. Permalink.
lesbiansaidwhat replied:
How about we just have a bit of compassion towards those who are having to make a choice that they know would get them labeled a murder? How about we say I haven’t walked in their shoes and have no idea what the hell is going on?
Did Jesus hold up signs saying this woman is a slut, hooker, whore? No but for some reason ‘Christians’ think it’s okay to call a sixteen year old a ‘murderer’. What if her parents made her get an abortion?
What if it was someone who was raped by their father? But people with their holier than thou attitude think in terms of black and white. Not in terms of compassion, love, and understanding.
Shame isn’t a tactic that a ‘Christian’ should use. Fear isn’t a tactic a ‘Christian’ should use. It’s too bad that is what is used when it comes to abortion, or something deemed a ‘great sin’.
People talk about life of the unborn child. What about the dignity and the right of the mother. It gets taken away for an ideal that life begins at conception. (When I believe that it doesn’t)
C
September 5, 2008 at 6:01 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
lesbiansaidwhat: STANDING OVATION for you! Hear, hear, hear! Jesus very nearly ALWAYS showed compassion first, and taught second. The only exception was with the spiritual leaders of his time. Aren’t we supposed to follow that brilliant example?
September 5, 2008 at 6:04 pm. Permalink.
e2tc replied:
Lindsey, excellent post. Re. ectopic pregnancies, though – there is no way the fetus could possibly develop in a normal manner, is there? And absolutely no way around the severe risks for both mother and implanted egg… To my mind, this has always been an “abnormal” thing, just like endometrial tissue growing where it doesn’t belong. (Though the latter obviously isn’t fatal to the person who has the problem, it can certainly cause a lot of misery.)
Just my .02-worth…
September 5, 2008 at 6:40 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
e2c: There is NO way it could ever be a viable pregnancy- it would inevitably cause a rupture and kill the mother. But… that’s why I brought it up. Because if this child is divine life and created for a purpose, shouldn’t we hesitate about killing it? But we don’t, we call it a bundle of cells that has no hope of life, and discard it.
September 5, 2008 at 6:47 pm. Permalink.
wvhillcountry replied:
Wow Lindsey another great post. Love and compassion, a great place to work from. Good communication is truely key in any relationship.
September 5, 2008 at 7:22 pm. Permalink.
lesbiansaidwhat replied:
Lindsey, just thought I’d throw in my two cents.
C.
September 5, 2008 at 8:06 pm. Permalink.
Katherine replied:
Lindsey:
I see the conflict about when life begins. It’s addling my brain cells just thinking about it. Hmmm…. who knows. But it’s true that most Christians don’t really believe life begins at conception. If they did, they wouldn’t be taking the birth control pill.
From having personal experience with abortion by taking my best friend, the only advice I can give is if there is ANY DOUBT in a woman’s mind about having that abortion, DON’T DO IT. In other words, if a woman is 99% certain she wants to abort and 1% unsure, then STOP! Abortion may seem like the easy answer; it may seem like a way to wipe the slate clean; it’s not! After the abortion, that little bit of uncertainty creeps in week-by-week as you look at the calendar and realize you (or my case, my best friend) would have been 11 weeks and 20 weeks and 29 weeks and come the due date, you wonder what it’s birthdate would have been. Then you think about it’s fingers forming, it sucking it’s thumb, kicking, squirming, having dreams and all the other fetal milestones. That little bit of uncertainty leads to a WHOLE LOT OF REGRET!!!
After the abortion, there is a lot of pain, sadness and depression. It’s as though you keep looking for something that is no longer coming. There is this emptiness and you lose your motivation to keep doing better in this life. I thought that with time these things would diminish and it would get easier. It just doesn’t. You just get numb and try to remember the reasons at the time for having done it- and the reasons were really big reasons and it seemed like the right decision. But now, I dunno. Time may be distorting the reality at the time of abortion. Though having the baby would have been extremely hard (money, time, energy, legal fees and a sociopathic boyfriend), there would have been some measure of joy in seeing that child laugh, smile and grow for the rest of it’s life. With abortion there isn’t any joy, just pain and numbness.
My concern with abortion is not whether or not it’s murder, but that it’s the most emotionally difficult choice and aftermath a woman will ever experience. And telling women that they are murdering their children is the most ignorant thing anyone could say. Because if they had ever been through it, they’d be saying something VERY DIFFERENT to these women!!!!!!
September 5, 2008 at 10:47 pm. Permalink.
e2tc replied:
Lindsey, re. this: Because if this child is divine life and created for a purpose, shouldn’t we hesitate about killing it?…
I think my point was that there’s virtually 0 chance of any ectopic pregnancy being anything even close to “normal,” let alone all the rest. So, have I had any compunctions about this, ever? Not really. (I’m doing a bit of devil’s advocate work in my previous comment, but guess I didn’t make that entirely clear…)
September 5, 2008 at 11:59 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
e2c: Well, I get that, I do. And I’m playing Devil’s Advocate in my own way, because it’s easy to say “well, that one there is nonviable anyway, the mother would just end up dead…”
But- if the two are divine life and in that way equal- it SHOULD give us pause. If that embryo is divinely created and created with intent equal to that of a properly implanted and potentially viable pregnancy, shouldn’t we do everything within our power to find a way to preserve that life?
Or do we actually feel that the only divinely created life are those pregnancies which are deemed as viable? At which point that also causes me to question the moral value of our rage over this issue. Because at that point WE are making OURSELVES God- we are determining by our OWN standards what is divine or not. Can anyone really say “God gave a soul to the viable pregnancy but not to the inviable?” Or for those that argue that the soul is inherited at fertilization- does God give a soul to thousands of inviable pregnancies? And if so- for what purpose? Or is it not an issue of the soul, but as some claim, the “potential” to inherit a soul- at which point millions of fertilized eggs on ice are also divine.
I have a hard time putting myself into these arguments, honestly, because at the end of the day it’s not about rationality and ethics or even morality- but emotion.
It’s sticky.
September 6, 2008 at 12:13 am. Permalink.
mssc54 replied:
lesbiansaidwhat;
You are correct and incorrect in what Jesus said and did.
You are correct in that Jesus often said “go and sin no more”.
You are absolutely incorrect in that Jesus said to those who practiced a life style of “I’m better than you are and you can’t tell me what I’m doing wrong. I will just tell you what you are doing wrong.” (the Pharasees)
I have grown a bit tired of the “not walking a mile in my shoes” red herring.
So what. I can still have empathy for someone without walking in their exact foot steps.
I have never swam in a sewage treatment plant pond but I’m pretty sure it would be a nasty experience.
I don’t mean to further inflame the “arguement” however, when a woman is raped (regardless of who rapes her) does not necessarily mean that she needs to abort the baby. Each situation is different.
Once again, no one ever addresses the “rights of the father” of the unborn baby. The impregnated woman knew the risks of getting pregnant as did the father. Just because the mother is the one who has to physically carry the baby should not exclude the father from any rights to deciding whether the baby is brought to term or not.
And for the record, we are part of the solution. At the age of early to mid fifties we are adopting a four and six year old brother and sister. So don’t try that old arguement “Christians should step up and adopt these babies.” We are and have had these children for thirty months already.
September 6, 2008 at 12:32 am. Permalink.
e2tc replied:
M54 – not to argue, but I wonder about the “in my shoes” thing, because I believe it’s valid.
Some examples from my own life:
Knowing that death and grief are a reality is very different than actually going through the loss of someone you love deeply. (In my case, my dad, then others, most recently one of my brothers.) I could imagine what this might be like, but there was absolutely no way that I could empathize with anyone else’s loss until I experienced it for myself.
(One of the reasons I chose this example is that I think we’ve got a lot in common that way – though again, your experience is different from mine and I’ll ever truly know how *you* feel.)
One of my close friends is a nurse-midwife. She did many deliveries prior to getting married and having kids, and knew the drill … but actually being pregnant was completely different from anything she’d ever imagined (and she’d imagined a lot!) Morning sickness was what really caught her off guard, because she never dreamed it could be half as bad as it actually was for her (during her 1st pregnancy, anyway).
September 6, 2008 at 1:39 am. Permalink.
Amber replied:
Clapping and cheering woohoo…. go Lindsey! Outstanding post. Take the log out of your own eye before plucking the speck out of the eye of your brother. Such a simple concept, yet one of those that people tend to choose to ignore.
You rock girlfriend!
September 6, 2008 at 3:19 am. Permalink.
Sarahjane replied:
“You can change the world, if you can change yourself. If you can’t control yourself, you can’t do anything. It’s really that simple”
People…..Lindsey stories are examples for us to think how we can change our own thinking. It’s amazing how some of us can hijack the conversation and misdirect it. Those who want to stop conversation will deliberately yell outrageous labels or terms that threaten people into being quiet or unresponsive. This post is for us to examine us, ourselves and change the way you treat others. Re-examine our own doing and thinking about how we treat others; that’s all.
September 6, 2008 at 3:45 am. Permalink.
Stephanie replied:
Lindsey-Good stuff, in your post and your comments!
C-Wow, you go! Your two cents speaks volumes!
And Sarahjane, you are so very right!
September 6, 2008 at 5:37 am. Permalink.
The Sentinel replied:
Mssc54,
I do not see where Lesbian Said What posted that Jesus said :You are absolutely incorrect in that Jesus said to those who practiced a life style of “I’m better than you are and you can’t tell me what I’m doing wrong. I will just tell you what you are doing wrong.” (the Pharasees)
I see a cry for compassion from Lesbian Said What. Instead you call walking in someones shoes a red herring. That is the reasoning of someone who lacks compassion. A person cannot truly understand where another person is coming from unless they have walked that ground them self.
I see in Lesbian Said Whats’ comment a request that there is more to a situation than meets the eye. There is a reason a woman would feel the need to get an abortion. Those who condemn with out knowledge of the persons struggle are compassionless.
If you have never fought in a war can you say you understand what war is like? No.
Understanding and empathizing are two different things. You can empathize what it is like to swim in sewage. Do you understand what it is like to have it in your nose, mouth, and eyes? Not truly unless you have swam in the sewage. You can empathize that it was bad, and not pleasant but you cannot understand the taste.
But could you as a man empathise with a woman who was raped? I don’t think you or anyone who hasn’t been raped could under stand what that is like. All I can say is that I can’t imagine what it is like. I cannot understand the trauma of what it is like to be raped.
The Sentinel
September 6, 2008 at 6:41 am. Permalink.
Julaybib Ayoub replied:
I always thought men screaming outside abortion clinics were simply affirming their patriarchal right to control women’s bodies. Probably more to do with femicide than infanticide. The fact is, almost everyone agrees what murder is. By contrast, many many people – reasonable, moral, sane people, some of them Christian – view abortion as a legitimate medical procedure.
September 6, 2008 at 3:05 pm. Permalink.
littledear replied:
This is amazing, amazing discussion. wow.
September 6, 2008 at 11:45 pm. Permalink.
Lee replied:
A struggle alot of us deal on a daily basis.
> If you can’t control yourself, you can’t do anything.
September 7, 2008 at 12:43 am. Permalink.
Frances replied:
I agree to a certain degree. Read labratbites.wordpress.com you will see my headaches and woes are not my doing but the doing of everyone else and I have to live with it.
Because of who and what they are they can get away with it and answer to no one.
I always believed your life is what it is because of what you create. Not now. There are instances that creates situations not in your control and you have to suffer everyone elses greed and ego.
September 7, 2008 at 2:41 am. Permalink.
terraba replied:
My girlfriend got pregnant a month ago. It was not planned and it has come at the worst possible time in our lives; I have an enormous debt (both college loans and a small biz loan), my girlfriend is finishing school and to make things worse the economy has slowed down to the point where it will be very difficult to meet all the bills every month. So when she told me she was pregnant our first thought was an abortion…it seemed like the right thing to do.
We are what you would consider liberals. We strongly support gay rights, pro-choice groups, environmental groups and universal health care to mention a few. Why do we support all these groups and ideas? Because we, as liberals, respect the equality of all humans, the right of women to choose what to do with their bodies, the right of all citizens to have decent and affordable health care and also respect the life of all things non-human; trees, rivers and animals. It was this very last point that made us change our minds about the abortion, and here is why.
Most people seemed to view the pro-choice vs pro-life discussion as a religious vs secular philosophical matter. If you don’t believe me simply read all the posts above. People seemed to be caught up with what the entire country is caught up with this days, the old conservative vs liberal crap…a never ending you are this your are that bla, bla, bla. But to me we are all missing a point here; respect for living things, and that includes humans too.
You see, we have become so selfish and self-centered that we do not think about the right other beings have to life. All that matters is our point of view. And this applies to both “liberals” and “conservatives”. Conservatives fight for a baby’s right to live but forget those babies will live in a planet where big companies’ toxic waste and humans’ gluttony will leave precious little for them to enjoy. Liberals herald sustainable development, vegetarianism and respect for animals but will encourage mothers to kill their babies if they can’t afford them or if they pose a threat to their selfish goals of achievement in life… that to me is just selfish!
So my girlfriend and I will have a baby. We knew that a consequence of having sex is creating life, and we are not going to be so selfish to destroy that little miracle growing on her just because the timing was off. She/he deserves to experience all the beautiful things life has to offer, and we are not about to change that for a stupid conservative vs liberal discourse.
September 7, 2008 at 5:27 am. Permalink.
SanityFound replied:
Lindsey this is seriously one of your best yet perhaps because it is so close to my heart, you are just plain outright awesome!!! I have nothing to add except Wow and ubuntu
September 7, 2008 at 6:58 am. Permalink.
びっくり replied:
Most psychologists will explain to you that having an abortion won’t just make “all her pain and troubles go away”. Sometimes a problem really is a problem; regardless of whose eye one thinks a splinter or plank is in.
September 7, 2008 at 2:18 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Katherine I understand. And as someone who experienced a miscarriage, I can sympathize with that. With wondering, “what if I had this child?”
I can’t imagine the pain I would feel had it been my DECISION not to have that. I really can’t.
Mssc54: “Red Herring”? OMG. Did you really say that? It’s not a Red Herring! Imagine I describe to you in detail what it is like to be sexually abused as a young girl. Imagine I describe to you the conflict it creates in me, etc. You could certainly sympathize with me, you could even agree that sexual abuse is wrong- but there are things you wouldn’t be able to understand. Like if I explained the ambivalence an abuse victim feels- hatred mixed with sympathy and sometimes even a twisted kind of affection for the attacker. Some abuse victims feel the need to protect their attacker, to explain the actions of their attacker. Some even feel as if they have somehow earned the abuse. They feel this obligation…
All of these things that you can intellectually understand and sympathize with if you haven’t “been there”- but you sure as hell can’t empathize and you certainly would have no right, as one who hasn’t felt, to tell one who has what they ought to do with their emotions and ambivalence.
The point is that it’s not a “red herring”- rather than saying “I can sympathize without, thank you very much”, you should seek deeper understanding. A vast majority of the time when someone says “you haven’t been where I have” they aren’t rejecting you, they are trying to invite you in. Trying to get you to come where they are.
It’s not a red herring. It is a legitimate concern, and while it’s never an excuse to reject someone or to neglect good counsel, it does serve as a timely reminder that we aren’t the judges of humanity. God is.
So leave people’s lives, their sins and consequences, in the hands of the Creator who is more than capable of judging fairly. The only time we have the right to call to repentance is when people invite us in. And calling a legitimate call for compassion a “red herring” won’t get you there.
Frances: You can’t control other people, but you can control yourself, and your attitude. I haven’t had time to read your blog, but I do hope you come to a place in your life that is not so full of pain and headache.
Terraba: I’m glad you and your girlfriend are doing what you feel is best. While I am pro-choice, I don’t think that abortion is the answer the vast majority of the time. Learning to be a parent, learning to put another first, learning to respect yourself and your body and your ability to create life… it’s an amazing thing. Best wishes for you and this journey in your life.
びっくり: Wow- way to pick a single sentence, out of context, to respond to- rather than digesting my post as a whole. I didn’t say an abortion WOULD make all of her problems go away. Obviously, it won’t- and the risk of infection and cervical scarring may cause many more problems. The point isn’t whether or not the decision to have an abortion is a good one (as it often isn’t) but whether or not the decision to picket outside a family planning center is a good one (as all of that time, energy, and money would be better used elsewhere).
September 7, 2008 at 3:25 pm. Permalink.
Frances replied:
People can control. All they have to do is own you on paper. You are left alone and helpless. YOu don’t understand the ramifications of the criminals that control sectors of society who no one questions. You would have to experience my life to understand. My attitude is good, it’s thiers that is warped.
Sorry you can’t read and see the facts. People do control some lives. It’s a pity one is mine. That don’t mean I give it to them.
September 7, 2008 at 10:36 pm. Permalink.
Frances replied:
p.s.
Their problem is I have NEVER OR WILL asked, needed or want their help.
September 7, 2008 at 10:41 pm. Permalink.
glaize replied:
Phew! This was one breathtaking read today, Lindsey! I’ll start with changing a few things about myself
Change myself. Change the world. Wow! 
September 7, 2008 at 11:13 pm. Permalink.
mssc54 replied:
Lindsey;
You could be correct.
So, mind my own business when it comes to the way women feel when it comes to their “reproductive rights”. But stick my nose in when I see a woman getting beaten?
That’s my challenge. While I can physically “do something” if I see a woman getting the tar beaten out of her, I am expected to support her (or in the least not hinder her) in her choice to abort her baby.
That just seems wrong to me.
September 8, 2008 at 12:10 am. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Frances: I hope you can find someone to support you and help you through your struggles. I did read your blog- and medical law isn’t an easy thing to stomach!
Glaize: thanks!
Mssc54: No, you are not being asked to “support” a woman’s choice to have an abortion. You’re not even being asked to agree with it. You ARE being asked to not behave in a way that bars you from being able to help that woman. You can tell a woman “I don’t agree with abortions, but I want to help you get (food) or (medical care) or (a place to stay while this blows over with your family) or (a place to get free maternity wear and prenatal vitamins)”.
No one expects you to endorse something that is contrary to your personal morality, and most non-christians will be open-minded about the fact that you don’t agree with their actions as long as you don’t act like they just smeared poo on your shoe. I don’t think that you should endorse abortion just as much as you shouldn’t endorse spousal abuse. You see both things as wrong- and that’s fine. But while it is clear why spousal abuse is wrong to most people, the same isn’t true of abortion. And while one is illegal, the other isn’t.
So should you be in the position to counsel someone who is considering an abortion- do what comes naturally. Tell them you want to help and take care of them. They may very well change their mind. But should they not- try to understand. Tell them you think it’s a bad choice, but you’ll be there to help them on the other side.
Don’t stop loving people just because they make what you see to be poor choices. Understand that you don’t know the struggle they face. That’s all I ask.
September 8, 2008 at 12:26 am. Permalink.
lesbiansaidwhat replied:
MA54–I was just sharing my opinion. I think when it comes to topics like this it does no good to try and change peoples minds. I think it’s good to give suggestions on how we can better help people.
C.
September 8, 2008 at 6:59 pm. Permalink.
jonolan replied:
lesbiansaidwhat,
I think that was Lindsey’s point in this post. She stressing a change in action or response as opposed to a change in belief.
September 8, 2008 at 7:40 pm. Permalink.
Mighty Jalapeno replied:
I’ll admit, I didn’t read EVERY comment… I read about half of them, but my eyes started to cross, and I have to get back to work, so I just sort of skimmed the rest, and I don’t think that this viewpoint has been mentioned yet (it so rarely is, in any forum):
Is it possible to discuss abortion without bringing up Christianity, or indeed, any religion?
Sometimes I think it isn’t, because the “baby murdering!” side always seems to be the people who believe that God is on their side, while the “women’s choice” people seem to be operating from the position of… well, not godless logic, but religion-independent logic. Religion doesn’t seem to enter into it on their side, except when they bring up the “Jesus believed in free will” arguments, to shoot down the “baby murdering” side.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a pro-life / pro-choice argument that was completely independent of religious overtones.
…
Not sure where I was going with this, just wanted to add my fiftieth of a dollar.
September 9, 2008 at 4:13 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Mighty Jalapeno: Good point- and it is rarely brought up. Part of the reason why I decided to blog more in depth on the topic of abortion is because I want people to learn to evaluate things from a standpoint other than “it’s murder” or “it goes against God”. If outside of religion there’s no ethical reason to ban abortion, than in order to end abortion we’d have to legislate our personal morality (something I’m against)
And I’ve yet to hear any argument from a Christian, devoid of religious texts, that shows that a first trimester abortion is ethically wrong.
Earlier in the comments it was mentioned that it’s an unequal and unfair argument if one person is saying “this is the standard of medical ethics” and the other is waving around posters of mutilated fetuses screaming “LEGALIZED MURDER”. The point of a debate shouldn’t be to more and more loudly reiterate your own point of view, but to logically evaluate the other person’s argument and attempt to disprove it on it’s own merits.
Most Christians aren’t doing that. Which is why they are so easily ignored by people who disagree with them.
September 9, 2008 at 4:19 pm. Permalink.
DancingOpossum replied:
“there would have been some measure of joy in seeing that child laugh, smile and grow for the rest of it’s life. With abortion there isn’t any joy, just pain and numbness.
…My concern with abortion is not whether or not it’s murder, but that it’s the most emotionally difficult choice and aftermath a woman will ever experience.”
Absolutely untrue. You are projecting what you think you might feel if you had an abortion onto millions of women who actually have had them, and what the facts actually show. Respected study after respected study has shown that most women who have abortions experience little to no emotional distress or regret. Indeed, the overwhelming reaction is of pure relief.
Remember that many women have abortions for the simple reason that they don’t want children–end of story, period–regardless of whether they can afford to raise them or not. (This includes married women, some of whom have the abortions without telling their husbands.)
In fact, it is pregnancy–carrying a baby to full term–that is the most difficult, and dangerous, thing that happens to most women. Pregnancy is fraught with a thousand times more real, physical danger than abortion is, yet nobody ever talks about this. Abortion is, in fact, a fast, simple, extremely safe procedure with very few risks and almost no side effects, unlike childbirth which is often painful, complicated, and risky. I know you don’t like to hear that but it happens to be the truth.
September 9, 2008 at 7:15 pm. Permalink.
lesbiansaidwhat replied:
Jonolan–I was replying to Mc54 on the reason he wasn’t going to get a lengthy reply from me.
I ‘heard’ what Lindsey said. Thank you.
C.
September 9, 2008 at 8:38 pm. Permalink.
jonolan replied:
Ah…Ok, lesbiansaidwhat
This is what happens when the comments get long, involved and interesting.
BTW: I agree with you; there’s little point in trying to change people’s minds on issues such as this. I’m just glad that I’m just here trying to get a gist of the logic involved in people’s opinions.
September 9, 2008 at 10:48 pm. Permalink.