Ray Boltz gay and happy!
“There is shock and sadness in the Christian community over word that famed Christian music singer Ray Boltz has publicly announced he’s living a homosexual lifestyle.” (From One News Now)
There’s also a shock and a joy in the “Gay Community”- if you want to call it that. A Google News search will bring up two kinds of articles- Christians mourning the “loss of an icon” and gay news services applauding the gaining of one.
Then, there’s me, wishing there didn’t have to be such divisiveness. It’s not as if he belongs either with us or with them- and the fact that he’s gay does not undo all of the good that has been done by his music over the ages. I’m at least proud that the Dove Awards have stated that they don’t consider the “lifestyles” of their winners, so he won’t have to give back his trophies.
Christians really do themselves a disservice when they eviscerate their own over things like this. There’s some really harsh stuff out there, mostly in comments rather than the news articles themselves. But Ray Boltz, a man who has been a constant in the Christian market for decades, deserves better than to be called “hedonistic” and “vile” just because he’s being open about who he is- and doing so in hopes of opening doors for better ministry to young people who struggle with the same questions that plagued his own life.
I hope that this revelation doesn’t lead to more bitterness, but instead becomes a bridge to understanding, and a pathway to good conversations that heal hearts and show God’s love.
Original Article- Washington Blade
Katherine replied:
I used to applaud or get all excited when a high-profile Christian joined the ranks by coming out as gay. I’ve kind of let go of that club mentality.
Now, it just makes me happy to that Ray Boltz has accepted himself and is willing to be open about. But more than anything, I feel sorry for Ray Boltz. The most difficult thing I ever did was “come out” to family and friends. And I was not prepared for the heaping of unrelenting pressure to follow the path that they thought was “right”. They treated me as though I was mentally ill somehow and in need of rehabilitation. There was ZERO understanding, just a clinging to the false things they had been taught about gay people. It’s hard enough facing that kind of slaughter-fest from a handful of people, but half the conservative Christian population… AHHHH!! I can only imagine and don’t even want to know what that’s gonna be like. So I just feel for Ray Boltz and hope he is capable of keeping it all together when it gets ugly.
September 15, 2008 at 7:38 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Katherine: I really don’t enjoy bearing witness to the club mentality and the preening that’s going on over this- but it is nice to know that he has been able to heal his relationships with his family and children and feels more like “himself” now than he has his whole life. Good for him! I hope he gets joy out of it.
This particular case is interesting because of the attention it’s bringing to the fact that the Christian Music culture is very insulated when it comes to sexuality. The amount of times articles about Boltz mentioned that there are numerous gay men and women in the Christian music industry that feel incredible pressure to not talk about their sexuality or to model heterosexuality in order to be successful is just breath taking- but not in a good way.
I hope this leads to good conversations and honesty on all ends.
September 15, 2008 at 7:42 pm. Permalink.
Robert replied:
I THINK RAY BOLTZ MADE THE BIGGEST MISTAKE OF HIS LIFE, HE WAS NOT BORN GAY, AND THERE IS NO PROOF,
THAT HE WAS HE MIGHT SING CHRISTIAN SONGS BUT HE
IS A LONG WAY FROM BEING A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN,
BECAUSE IF HE REALLY BELIVED THE BIBLE, AND WHAT IT
SAYS, HE WOULD NOT HAVE CHOSEN THE GAY, LIFESTYLE
BEING BORN GAY IS LIES FROM SATAN, ALL I CAN SAY,RAY GET BACK TO THE BASICE OF THE BIBLE
June 3, 2009 at 12:01 am. Permalink.
lala replied:
unfortunately morality is not relative. There is right and wrong whether we like it or not. Just because you think 2 plus two is five does not make it so.
You will see somedat
September 15, 2008 at 8:22 pm. Permalink.
faemom replied:
What did that last comment mean?
I think God made us how we are. If God made someone hetro- or homo-sexaul, who’s fault is that? I think it’s so sad that people get so angry about such things. If God is a God of love, then he made us in love and wants us to love in the way he made us.
September 15, 2008 at 8:32 pm. Permalink.
Robert replied:
GOD DID NOT MAKE US GAY, HE MADE US IN HIS IMAGE, WHY WOULD HE MAKE US GAY, WHEN HE DETEST IT IN THE BIBLE, AND YOU WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINDGOM OF HEAVEN, IF YOU ARE GAY, MURDERER, LIAR, AND ETC.
BUT GOD FORGIVES ALL SIN, NO MATTER WHAT IT IS
June 3, 2009 at 12:05 am. Permalink.
anita replied:
I’m glad that Ray Boltz came out as gay, first for himself, because no matter what he’ll lose in terms of his fan base of evangelical Christians, the man will finally be able to walk in wholeness. I know of no queer Christian, despite what agony they went through in coming out, that would ever wish to go back into hiding again. I’m also rejoicing with the hope that as more visible queer Christians come out, other gay people will come to see that they don’t have to choose between their faith in Christ and being gay; that a person’s relationship with Christ transcends sexual orientation or any other human distinctions/diversity that gets humanity’s collective shorts in a bunch. God bless him during this time of transition.
September 15, 2008 at 10:56 pm. Permalink.
Jennifer Bayd replied:
Predisposition does not morality make. An exaggerated example helps to make the point: One could argue that an incurable pedophile is merely acting upon the natural tendencies that God gave him, and that only religious bigots would suggest that he should try celibacy. There are, in fact, several lobby groups in the US, Holland, and other countries that advocate the normalization of this behavior. These groups are continuously gaining popularity, and perhaps in 30 years a famous Christian artist will “come out” as a pedophile and receive a similarly sympathetic reaction.
September 16, 2008 at 2:13 am. Permalink.
involuntarytwitch replied:
There is a difference between a consenting, same-sex adult and a child.
September 16, 2008 at 2:26 am. Permalink.
Scott Cheatham replied:
…and since he has admitted to now leading a “normal gay life” what does that mean? The Washington Blade article alluded to his “first time with a man” and Ray never commented but just said he is living a “normal gay life”. Does that mean intimacy? If so, doesn’t that go against the Bible’s command to stay chaste until you commit to another? How does all of that balance out? Does the Biblical standard apply in gay relationships as well?
September 16, 2008 at 4:29 am. Permalink.
tangas replied:
how can such a wise post inspirate such unwise comments?
September 16, 2008 at 11:18 am. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Lala: I never said that homosexuality is great- I simply stated that eviscerating Ray Boltz will break down communication. And it will. Two plus to equals four and Man plus Woman equals God’s “original design”- but that doesn’t change the fact that gay people exist, gay people are sought by God, and publicly flaying Boltz will drive people away.
faemom: I’ve read a lot of comments like Lala’s over the months. God’s love is the key. God would never rubber stamp judgment or cruelty. Christians are shooting themselves in the foot over this.
Anita: Ray’s story is so much about the healing that comes from total honesty- I wish more people could see that.
Jennifer: Wow. I never even attempted to argue that homosexuality is okay- and your reaction to this post makes my point- Boltz is going to get hung out to dry. We should be loving and embracing him, we should be modeling Christ’s love. Ever heard the saying “the Army of God is the only one that shoots it’s wounded”?
involuntarytwitch: thank you.
Scott: The point is that Boltz’s life up to this point has been an inspiration and a testament to his love for God. We shouldn’t throw him away just because we can’t make sense of THIS.
tangas: thank you so much, truly.
September 16, 2008 at 11:58 am. Permalink.
SanityFound replied:
Oh boy… my greatest wish in this lifetime is to see the day when this type of thing isn’t such a big hubbalaloo.
September 16, 2008 at 12:20 pm. Permalink.
forgiveness replied:
Aslanpals
They are not finding any proof that homosexuality is genetic. You are obviously just repeating lies you’ve heard. In fact everyone needs to stop repeating what they’ve heard and find the studies which back up their claims.
You are not born gay. It is a combination of multiple influences, one of which (perhaps the most common) is homosexual sex or molestation. There are psychological repercussions to nearly everything that happens in a child’s life, and just because they repress their first homosexual encounter doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I also want to say that it is really annoying for people to say, homosexuals were born that way, when they only believe it about others and not themselves. I’m willing to bet anyone (gay) here had some type of unnatural sexual experience in their childhood which started the ball rolling. The sad thing is that the gay community is misdirecting when they blame their homosexuality on genetics, rather than on the events which were painful when they occurred, and continue to need attention. You’re basically trying to get people to accept and love you without actually being genuine and open about what caused the problem in the first place. You feel like everyone is blaming you and they keep yelling “it’s a choice”. It’s not a choice. Or at least not yours. It was the choice of the bastard who molested you. After that it was no longer your choice. The misdirection occurs when you blame it on nature instead of the abuser. Healing can occur. But it can’t happen unless the correct problem(s) is addressed.
September 16, 2008 at 1:45 pm. Permalink.
Daniel replied:
So then, if one’s sexuality is a matter of choice, do heterosexuals choose their orientation?
I might also point out that no one finding any “proof” that same sex orientation is not genetic.
It’s quite true that there are many quoting pseudo-science to support a biased argument, but gay people aren’t the only ones doing that, not by a country mile.
It’s also quite common to use the shoddiest exegesis to support one’s own bias. Once again, gay people are not the only ones doing that.
Perhaps a good place to start is by assuming that just maybe Mr. Boltz had very good reasons and motives for making the statements about himself that he did, which have put him under so much scrutiny and condemnation.
June 4, 2009 at 3:23 pm. Permalink.
Mike replied:
You have got to be kidding me?! Are we putting conditions on our faith? Who are we to do that. It is clear, in God’s word, that sexual immorality IS a sin and an abomination to the God we (they) say we (they) serve. You are either right or you are wrong, there is no middle ground. Narrow is the path. Just remember that many, MANY people will stand before God and proclaim that they spoke the truth and have exclaimed the name of God to people, yet God will tell them to depart, He never knew them.
Your soul is between you and God, but don’t presume that God’s love extends to allowing us to live the lives that WE feel is best for us.
September 16, 2008 at 2:15 pm. Permalink.
anita replied:
Forgiveness
I never experienced any type of sexual experience in childhood. No abuse. No experimentation. No inappropriate touch or unseemly advances. And among my gay and lesbian friends I would estimate that roughly the same percentage of them experienced some type of early sexual experience as exists among the same number of straight people I know.
What I would suggest is you consider following your own advice you offered to someone else.
I would also add to that, be mindful of the source of those studies.
September 16, 2008 at 3:24 pm. Permalink.
Lisa replied:
All I want to say is for those of us, who truly believe in the Word of God, Now is not the time to play with God. Make sure YOU stay in your Word and abide in Christ to the end. We must know God intimately and know Him well. Keep your eye’s Jesus don’t take them off for one second or the enemy and this world will have you fooled to. So for those of you (and you know who you are) who have and ear to hear don’t waiver from the doctoring of Jesus Christ and remember the words of His true disciples in the Word. Like Paul said in
Galatians 1:7-9 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
James 1:17 tells us that there is no variation or shadow of turning in the Father of lights.
Isaiah 29:13 Therefore the Lord said: “Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men.
So true brothers and sisters in the faith the time is hear and we need to stand for something or we will fall for anything.
There are two things for certain
(One) every knee shall bow and every tong shall confess that Jesus is Lord.
(Two)There are no unbelievers after death.
I love and pray for Ray but he is simply wrong.
The word also tell that God is able to keep us from stumbling and present us faultless but we must want to be kept. God does not mess with anyone’s will.
September 16, 2008 at 4:28 pm. Permalink.
rbrosmer replied:
“Gay community” isn’t divisive. It’s a term that is embraced by, well, the gay community. It is a life style separate in ways from others, in ways that are different enough that it can be categorized as such. Here in Richmond, Va. we have an awesome thrift store called Diversity Thrift and its run alongside the Gay Community Center of Richmond. If they found the idea of a “gay community” being offensive, such things wouldn’t exist.
September 16, 2008 at 5:02 pm. Permalink.
infamousqbert replied:
Scott Cheatham: is your heterosexuality predicated on always being in a sexual relationship with a woman? were you not straight before you had sex? so why must it be assumed that, to be gay, one must be constantly engaging in homosexual sex? leading a normal gay life is pretty much the same as leading a normal straight life. what it means is not hiding who you are. being comfortable with yourself and others who represent to the world the qualities within you.
one of the biggest misconceptions about non-hetero lifestyles is that they’re all about sex. i’ve known celibate gays and sexually addicted straights. neither of them represented the whole or the norm of either culture anymore than their sexual opposites would.
September 16, 2008 at 5:04 pm. Permalink.
infamousqbert replied:
also, for anyone who wants a true, deep exploration of how the bible fits in with the current “christian-right” view on homosexuality, i suggest you rent For the Bible Tells Me So.
September 16, 2008 at 5:08 pm. Permalink.
infamousqbert replied:
oh, and i’ll be done after this. i was never molested, raped, or had any kind of unwanted sexual activity. neither did my girlfriend.
September 16, 2008 at 5:10 pm. Permalink.
Vamsi replied:
Phew ! The man is gay, so be it, whats the big fuzz. I know the religion gets in the way and people will react weird, it’s for himself to be comfortable “being himself” which will lead to a better understanding of himself living a life that he/she always wanted
September 16, 2008 at 5:12 pm. Permalink.
Grafxgurl replied:
What about this then?
“just last year in March, the director of the Human Genome Project, Dr. Francis Collins, said this: homosexuality is not hardwired. There is no gay gene. We mapped the human genome. We now know there is no genetic cause for homosexuality.”
September 16, 2008 at 5:13 pm. Permalink.
dobeman replied:
I think this is a big disappointment to a lot of people who have been touched by his music over the years. For how long has he been representing himself as one thing, yet living as something else? In essence, living a lie.
Call it what you want, but the Bible is very clear homosexuality. That doesn’t mean God doesn’t love homosexuals, but it does mean that they are not living according to scripture. Just because some religions have “chosen” to ordain homosexual ministers, doesn’t mean it’s God’s will.
September 16, 2008 at 5:14 pm. Permalink.
patrickandchristy replied:
The Bible is clear when it comes to homosexuality and how God looks upon homosexuality. But God is also clear that He is the only one that can judge someone and determine their eternal fate. It is not up to me, as a Christian, to judge this guy or any other homosexual. Christ is clear that we are to love the person but hate the sin. Many Christians confuse this and in so doing appear to be hypocrites and ignorant of God’s true word. God doesn’t hate anyone, regardless of their sin but God does hate sin, homosexuality in this case.
If people chose to be gay, then that is a choice that they make, yes, I said a choice. Contrary to what many would like to think and the argument used to rationlize homosexuality, God DID NOT make us this way. That’s a lie from satan himself. Oh, I did say satan. Many fail to even consider the role that satan plays in homosexuality. Satan is the centerpiece of the homosexual lifestyle but most will deny this or not even realize it. People want to make a complicated issue out of homosexuality but it’s very simple, at least from a spiritual standpoint.
So Ray Boltz wants to be gay?! Fine, let him. That doesn’t mean he deserves to be treated cruelly or unmerciful by anyone, especially Christians. We should know better. Just as I have to answer only for myself to God, so does he. Jesus still loves Ray and will offer him redemption/forgiveness when and if Ray seeks it. If he seeks it but continues to live in a gay lifestyle, then forgiveness will not be extended and there will be spiritual consequences. By the way, this is from the Bible, not from me. But that’s true of all of us that chose to live in direct opposition to God’s Word.
But one thing Ray needs to understand and others that profess to be Christians living in homosexual lifestyles, you do not have any ministry to offer to God or anyone in the Christian community. You cannot be a positive Christian influence in anyone’s life when you have perverted or distorted God’s Word. Homosexuals have no place in being leaders, pastors, staff, Christians artists, etc. in any Christian ministry or church. We need to wake up to this fact. God welcomes you in His House of worship but until you have been delivered from the grip of homosexuality (or adultery, drugs, etc.), you should not place yourself in these positions.
September 16, 2008 at 5:20 pm. Permalink.
zeemanb replied:
No huge feelings either way, but as someone who was active in ministry in the early 90′s, I do remember a lot of his music and all of the “human videos” we were tortured with whenever he’d put out another album. Just hoping things like this will ultimately lead to evangelical hard liners easing up and becoming more tolerant. Honestly, if you can be fat and be a Christian, you can be gay and be a Christian….no idea why the gay community has always been deemed such a threat. Ray, wherever you are, take care and god bless!
September 16, 2008 at 5:24 pm. Permalink.
DKN replied:
Jennifer – I have several problems with your argument. But I’d mainly like to point out to you that people CAN argue that people are born gay and that pedophiles are NOT. It has been proven that those patterns of sexually abusive behavior are learned, not innate. And what lobbies are you referring to? NAMBLA? They are crazy and everyone knows it. They are NOT gaining popularity – that is a fabrication spread by anti-gay groups to attempt to win a failing argument comparing homosexual marriage to the acceptance of sexual relationships between men and children. There is no comparison.
September 16, 2008 at 5:25 pm. Permalink.
Jennifer Bayd replied:
involuntarytwitch – these these lobby groups advocate consensual pedophilia, which in my opinion doesn’t make it any less immoral.
Lindsey – I totally agree. We should love the sinner, embrace them, and out of love, correct them. Jesus embraced sinners but never once condoned their sins. Rather he forgave them and told them “Go and sin no more.”
September 16, 2008 at 5:38 pm. Permalink.
Kirk replied:
Lindsey, thanks for continuing to spread love as opposed to the hypocritical judgment and justified rancor evident in the majority of “Christians” today. It seems the stone-throwers have the loudest voices and I truly feel the world needs more people like you to stand up and shout over the ignorance and arrogance. It’s too bad that it’s just pearls before swine half the time (judging by the comments here, anyway).
I feel the need to point out, though, that this “love the sinner; hate the sin” stuff is nothing but a bunch of self-congratulatory pap. Don’t kid yourselves: it is inherently hypocritical. Rest assured, anyone with an ounce of self-respect is only insulted by such a sanctimonious sentiment and you injure your cause every time use it.
September 16, 2008 at 7:20 pm. Permalink.
Righteous Right replied:
[comment redacted by moderator]
Lindsey says: Hate speech isn’t allowed here.
September 16, 2008 at 7:50 pm. Permalink.
wvhillcountry replied:
forgiveness, just FYI, Lindsey is not gay. She is a christian heterosexual who is brave enough to think her own thoughts. She doesn’t follow the rhectoric from either side and she follows what God puts in her heart. She happens to think and act out of Love and compassion, which is very Christ like in my opinion.
Saying that every single gay person was sexually abused but repressed it is the same as saying every straight person was never abused but have false memories. You are belittling the life experiences of everyone here, gay or straight.
patrickandchristy
“But one thing Ray needs to understand and others that profess to be Christians living in homosexual lifestyles, you do not have any ministry to offer to God or anyone in the Christian community. You cannot be a positive Christian influence in anyone’s life when you have perverted or distorted God’s Word. Homosexuals have no place in being leaders, pastors, staff, Christians artists, etc. in any Christian ministry or church.”
Of course I disagree with this statement. I have personally witness multiple examples of gay people ministering wonderfully the Love of God.
September 16, 2008 at 7:55 pm. Permalink.
zeemanb replied:
Re: “Loving the sinner and hating the sin”
Even in my most Torah-spouting fundamentalist days, this was a saying that just never rang true with me. It always seemed like a way to hate the sinner without any self-examination or practice of any Christian virtue. There are a ton of “sins” in the New Testament that, by the letter of the law, “pervert God’s law” just as much as homosexuality. Yet, so many of those things fly under the radar because they are so prevalent in church. If being gay is a hanging offense come judgment day, then so are a LOT of other things….and when you get into measuring which sin is worse and why homosexuality is more of an abomination than obesity, masturbation, gossip, etc…..then you are setting yourself up to be judged by the law instead of grace. Does someone who is a glutton, greedy, jealous, angry, in debt, etc. deserve to be blocked from church leadership too? If not, why not?
Seriously, I’ve seen things like gossip do a LOT more harm to church members than any so-called “abominations”, yet that is a prime example of something that goes under the radar. So why do people focus on homosexuality? In my opinion, and in my experience, once you REALLY start preaching the “full gospel” you lose parishioners because you hurt their feelings. It’s easier just to hole up and point self-righteous fingers at people who really have no impact on you, and when confronted with a sin that is “worse” you can put your head back in the sand and use words like “deliverance” to gloss over your lack of insight, compassion and understanding.
September 16, 2008 at 8:26 pm. Permalink.
ken replied:
It’s interesting how extreme the reactions to a Christian homosexual are, yet we all probably have divorced people in our churches (side note – Jesus thought it important enough to comment on divorce, but not homosexuality … interesting, that). We all have greedy people in our churches. We all have selfish people in our churches. I could go on. I wonder if Amy Grant got this kind of treatment when she got divorced. Or Sandi Patty, when she had an affair with her backup singer, then divorced her husband to marry him. Yeah, I know they weren’t able to continue their respective ministries, but did they get this same kind of outright hostility? You can call a spade a spade without being hostile and demeaning about it (and equating a homosexual with a pedophile absolutely IS hostile AND demeaning – amongst other things).
One of my favorite Christian commentaries on the church and homosexuality comes from Tony Campolo. My favorite line: “You’re saying, ‘Tony, are you lending approval to homosexual behaviour? To homosexual acts?’ Certainly not! I am expressing disapproval for a church who has forgotten how to love people that Jesus will never stop loving.”
September 16, 2008 at 9:04 pm. Permalink.
Chris replied:
I don’t believe that divorce and homosexuality can be contrasted as far as their place in the church. Most of the time, divorce is a sin. The Bible does give a way out for abused couples. There really isn’t an allowance for turning to homosexuality for any reason.
The other point is that people don’t repent from divorce by just getting married again, necessarily. They repent by not getting divorced again, and if that means not getting married, then so be it. The way to repentance for homosexuality is to stop living the life. That’s the difference between a divorced man or woman sitting in a pew and a homosexual sitting in a pew.
AND this is just how I view how these things play out, not necessarily an indictment on anyone.
September 16, 2008 at 9:25 pm. Permalink.
cole replied:
I really don’t have much of a comment only that the Bible does talk about homosexuality…
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or committ adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people – none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.
1Timothy 1:10-11 The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who pratice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God.
I think we as Christians need to be very careful what we say, we need to go back to God’s word instead of trying to explain things ourselves. No one can argue with what God’s word says. It is what it is.
Also, I must say one other thing….I think that we (none of us) really get how holy our God is and what he truly expects out of our lives. Like someone else said about throwing the first stone, there is a pretty long list of other people besides homosexuals in those verses, we all need to examine our own lives.
September 17, 2008 at 12:46 am. Permalink.
Katherine replied:
I’ve seen the idea that most gay people were sexually abused or molested in some way and this is the reason for them being gay appearing on this thread.
Well… I never had anything sexually abnormal (however you wanna classify a violation) happen to me. A friend of mine is bisexual and she has never had any abuse happen either. There just isn’t anything to “own up” to or admit here. It didn’t happen. From about the age of 8, I was always intrigued by the female body and this turned into attraction by the time my hormones kicked in at age 11.
Now when I say that, some might think, “oh, you must be repressing it somehow”. Umm… no. I remember EVERYTHING from my childhood. Ask anyone who knows me, my memory is amazing. But even the most painful events from my childhood are scorched in my brain. If I had been abused, that memory would be there. It’s not and my attraction was just a gradually emerging natural leaning.
I wish that folks would just let go of the idea that gay people have been abused. It’s simply false.
September 17, 2008 at 1:02 am. Permalink.
anita replied:
Cole, I think it’s interesting that you selected modern translations of those familiar passages (at least familiar to every gay and lesbian Christian) that have inserted the word “homosexuality” into the biblical text; a modern term and concept wholly unknown in antiquity. The same two Greek words “Arsenkoites” and “Malakos” that modern conservative/evangelical translators have combined to refer to homosexuality have been translated over the centuries as meaning everything from masturbation to morally weak to effeminate. If we should, as you recommend, “go back to God’s Word,” don’t you think it would be best to go back to the earliest translations available to us since they were located closer chronologically to the original manuscripts (which are no longer in existence)? Just wondering.
September 17, 2008 at 2:04 am. Permalink.
Sad Day replied:
Growing up I used to listen to his music. It has a lot of meaning… I’m sad to say that I wish someone else sang it now. This man did a lot of good with his music but in a single interview erased all that he stood for. God is a God of love but He also makes His standards clear. In Leviticus it explains that this will happen… men will leave their wives in exchange for unnatural relations. Unfortunately no matter how you feel about the situation whether gay or straight we all give an account to God and there is absolutely NO middle ground. It is either black or white and because God is a God of love we all have a chance of being redeemed from our sinful ways.
September 17, 2008 at 2:54 am. Permalink.
pumpingsunshine replied:
I really don’t think that a philosophical debate is what’s needed in here.
Everyone seems to be pontificating back and forth, yet, every single one of us is a human being, including Ray Boltz.
But if we can’t have compassion (and forgiveness) for another human being, haven’t we all missed something in the Word of God that we are talking about?
September 17, 2008 at 3:21 am. Permalink.
jstueart replied:
I’m so glad that Ray came out. It inspires others to find the honesty to do that. And that is a central core of Christianity: truth. The truth will set you free.
I think I’m gonna start a website celebrating famous gay Christians. But I tell you what—I’m turning off the reply button. Reading some of these comments is like having a jackhammer on your Temple; some people just want to tear you down.
Ray’s decision to be honest should make every person rejoice. Just think of what an honest life could do for you?
September 17, 2008 at 6:03 am. Permalink.
Adam Green replied:
anita: next time you recite your ancient greek words over the internet realize that there are people who actually study this stuff! ha ha!
‘malakos’ is a reference to homosexuality (all sorts actually, from pedophilia to prostitution to just the act itself)
the KJV does translate it as ‘effeminate’, but the KJV is by far not the most reliable translation (King James was bi after all) if only because of it’s age. Every translation has it’s issues … for instance, in that same verse, the NIV say ‘homosexual offenders’ but the word ‘offender’ is not in any greek manuscript.
‘arsenokoitēs’ is fairly straight-forward, it means – one who lays down with a man as with a woman. It fits well within the context because the previous word is ‘pornos’ (look familiar?) it’s the general word for sexual immorality/fornication.
Of course these words didn’t have to be invented for the Bible. The greeks and romans saw little shame in homosexuality (Plato’s republic makes that clear) the meanings are well established (evangelical Christianity aside).
September 17, 2008 at 6:32 am. Permalink.
Barry Wallace replied:
Gay and happy… and sadly deceived, I’m afraid, as many others are regarding their sin. I agree with Cole and Adam. The Bible is clear.
We are all>/i? sinners. Put me at the top of the list. But the solution to our problem is not to make peace with our sin, but to make war with it.
September 17, 2008 at 7:47 am. Permalink.
Brendon Naicker replied:
It would not last!
These are usually short-term relationships. Similiar to when civil unions where introduced in England. Matt Lucas proudly took his male partner to show that the boundaries have been crossed. However a year later…it is finished. Ray will soon come to his senses and his Christians family will be there to receive him.
Brendon.
September 17, 2008 at 9:59 am. Permalink.
steadycat replied:
I’m not hear to make friends so I’ll say this. I’m proud of any adult that embraces honesty and wholeness. I sincerely hope Mr. Boltz will find support and care with a more loving community as he is dropped by his hypocritical support system. If not, I hope he loves himself enough to persevere. Now for the part that will not make me friends with the nasty people. I am not a fan of christianity. It seems a lot of public christians don’t know how to love and are centered in being mean spirited to everyone who is different than themselves. If there was a Jesus and he came back today..christians would crucify him and make sure he didn’t try that reappearance trick again.
If it’s all about love than start acting like it – unless it has all been a propagandist lie. Cheers.
September 17, 2008 at 10:36 am. Permalink.
Allie replied:
I think news is going to shake a lot of Christians to the core. My little group of conservative friends on Facebook are writing back and forth on each others walls: “Did you hear about Ray Boltz” and commenting on how sad it is, how he needs to repent… But in my view, he’s the same man. He still wrote the music, he still touches others lives the way (I feel) God intended him to. His heart is the same, we just know more than we knew before.
I love God but have a problem with other Christians because I feel all too often that they try to take God’s place and judge others. I wish some of them would realize (some in this comment thread) that their words hurt other people, that their words taint their witness. And it is SO SAD that God gets mixed up and confused with their bigotry. Because so many more people could know and love God… if it weren’t for some of the Christians that are in the world getting in the way.
People, take your vehemence somewhere else. No one wants to listen to hellfire and damnation; it doesn’t win souls, love does. At least, according to my Bible-NKJV. I don’t know which one you’re reading.
September 17, 2008 at 12:44 pm. Permalink.
cole replied:
I think it’s interesting that you selected modern translations of those familiar passages (at least familiar to every gay and lesbian Christian) that have inserted the word “homosexuality” into the biblical text; a modern term and concept wholly unknown in antiquity. The same two Greek words “Arsenkoites” and “Malakos” that modern conservative/evangelical translators have combined to refer to homosexuality have been translated over the centuries as meaning everything from masturbation to morally weak to effeminate. If we should, as you recommend, “go back to God’s Word,” don’t you think it would be best to go back to the earliest translations available to us since they were located closer chronologically to the original manuscripts (which are no longer in existence)? Just wondering.
I really was not trying to point any fingers just quoting the scriptures. Homosexuality may not have been a word they used in the Bible times but it was still in practice then and God still viewed it the same way. Also, as far as the translation I chose, it’s the New Living Translation and yes it reads more modern so the Bible can be understood better by todays people. I have found that I can get more out of the Bible by reading it in a translation that I understand better. If you didn’t know the King James Version has been translated 16 different times to get the translation you have today. I do believe that you must be careful on the translation you choose because some have been misinterpreted but as far as this translation, compared to the King James, I feel it falls right in line. Also, I wouldn’t rely on “The Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies in Religion and Ministries” as a basis for interpreting the Bible. I believe that we cannot change the Bible and what it says to justify the things we do wether that be homosexuality or anything else that contradicts the word of God. Look I am just saying that God views everyone’s sin equally and that I am no better than anyone else just because I am straight.
King James Version
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.
New Living Translation
Leviticus 18:22 Do not pratice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.
September 17, 2008 at 1:46 pm. Permalink.
patrickandchristy replied:
If Ray came to me and was in earnest need, I would offer my hand to him in any way that I could because this is what my Lord has commanded of me. I would attempt to show him Godly love and to be a light in his time of darkness. But, if he were to ask me what I thought about his lifestyle choice or how I thought God viewed his decision, then I would tell him that what I thought was irrelevant. I would point him to the Bible, where God makes his stance clear about homosexuality, and other sins. We’re not talking about adultery, idolatry, etc. here because this is a post specifically about homosexuality. I don’t think God will differentiate between a habitual adulterer and a homosexual when it comes to his judgment. And none can claim perfection. We all have our demons to battle on a daily basis. People, though well-meaning, are ignorantly trying to compare homosexuality with other sins that we may commit. Although no one sin is greater or lesser in God’s eyes, the repetition of that sin is key. For example, if I steal $5 from someone, then I have sinned but if I admit my sin to God and to the person I stole from and make amends and then do not repeat this again, then I will be forgiven. But if I continually steal from others, knowing that I am in direct opposition to God then that’s the issue. That’s at the core of homosexuality…when you live in a homosexual lifestyle, you REPEATEDLY ignore God’s Word and sin against him. I understand that gay folks have a need to justify themselves and their lifestyles but there is no need to justify yourselves to the flesh of this world. It’s not me that you need to worry about what I think, it’s God. He’s the one you need to look to but know that He will judge you and make you justify yourself, just as He will all.
And NO, you cannot be an effective witness to the Truth of Jesus Christ and God’s Word as a homosexual, or habitual adulterer, theif, etc. To think you can is to showcase to the world your belief in the lies that satan is feeding to this world. And this lie is a BIG FAT ONE!
September 17, 2008 at 1:56 pm. Permalink.
anita replied:
Adam, If you consider arsenkoites to be easily interpreted given all that we know and more importantly don’t know about it, then that’s fine. You have your interpretation.
Cole, thank you for responding to my question. It was sincerely asked and I appreciate you took the time to answer. I never suggested by any stretch that the King James Version was a more accurate version. What I would suggest is that a modern translation such as The Living Translation, produced by a conservative publishing firm, will reflect a theological bias. And while I worked at the CLGS for some time but that’s not where my basis for biblical interpretation was formed.
September 17, 2008 at 2:59 pm. Permalink.
zeemanb replied:
“And NO, you cannot be an effective witness to the Truth of Jesus Christ and God’s Word as a homosexual, or habitual adulterer, theif, etc.”
So it sounds like the KEY here is whether or not something is habitual, if I’m reading it correctly. Back to a point I made earlier about what constitutes a sin….from the logic of whether or not something is habitual, I guess that does make continued obesity a sin. I only bring this up because I think it is one of those issues people choose to conveniently ignore. I think a pretty good case could be made for it, gluttony is certainly proof that someone is a lover of themself rather than God and consistently give in to the lust of the flesh. I mean, lust isn’t just about sex, an addiction is an addiction whether it’s alcohol, drugs, pornography or food. They all serve lustful cravings and exhibit a lack of self control that is spoken of in the Bible. Additionally, destroying the temple God gave you makes you a terrible witness to believers and unbelievers alike. A slave to the flesh is a slave to the flesh. So unless someone is in the process of truly repenting and getting themselves in shape, I guess that would constitute something as habitual as homosexuality?
I really am sorry if my point sounds flippant, but I think it is still valid. I’m not looking to make excuses for anyone or rationalize to the point of being a libertine, it is just something that always bugged me…..I can’t even count the number of pastors and church leaders I know who can stand up and proclaim the evils of fleshly desires like homosexuality, adultery, drug addiction, thievery, etc., work the congregation into a tizzy and then head out after church and pound down about 5000 calories at Outback. But it is conveniently ignored for some reason. Yes, we all have our own demons to battle every day, there is no doubt about this. I went and had surgery in order to finally overcome my obesity, which is part of the reason why I always harp on this particular topic. Does a habitual lover of the flesh just have to be sorry about it, or is their inability to overcome it a sign of their unrepentence and mockery of God?
Another reason I always pick on gluttony is because it makes you as “out” as someone like Ray Boltz. Outside of some extreme thyroid disorder, there is no question about the sin being committed. Things like greed, the love of money, lust, pride, etc. are all things that people can either hide or can be argued as far as “what constitutes it being a sin?”. I can’t prove that people like Joel Osteen and Benny Hinn are lovers of money, that is between them and God. So in my opinion, unless you ARE perfect and have completely overcome every bad habit that comes between you and God, I can’t understand the need to continually draw the line in the sand when it comes to scripture. I feel like the gay topic in the church has way more to do with contemporary politics than God, but that’s an entirely different can of worms.
And my apologies if I strayed too far off-topic. I just think that if someone is disillusioned or shaken by Ray Boltz coming out, then their focus was completely wrong in the first place. Go Ray, be happy with who you are, work out whatever you need to and move on. It’s refreshing to see someone just come out and say “I’m gay” rather than drag people through lies and scandals like Ted Haggard.
September 17, 2008 at 3:53 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
zeemanb: Not off topic at all. Actually, as far as my original post is concerned it’s comparatively more ON topic than a lot of the other comments here. The point of my post was not to condone homosexuality, but instead ask people to at least take part in an honest conversation.
Sadly, no one seems to understand that part of a conversation is LISTENING, not more and more loudly restating one’s own point.
September 17, 2008 at 4:02 pm. Permalink.
Adam replied:
First off the Bible, and Jesus taught against all sin. There are numerous places in the bible that spoke against homosexual lifestyles, just like that of other sinful lifestyles. If you don’t know where they are, then go to a minister and allow him to show them to you. In saying that, the lifestyle is a sinful one. God does not create sin. God does not create someone gay or not, and no amount of medical “speculation” states otherwise. There has been no medical discovery that something makes you gay. It is just like the ‘big bang’ theory or the theory of ‘evolution’. They are just that, theories and funny ponderings of those who do not want to accept facts.
[this comment edited by moderator to reduce it's hostile tone]
September 17, 2008 at 5:05 pm. Permalink.
patrickandchristy replied:
zeeman, you actually strenghten and back up my point very nicely. Thank you for doing that, even though I know that wasn’t your goal.
Listen, I don’t even know who this Ray guy is anyway. If he wants to be gay, then be gay. It doesn’t affect how I would personally treat him or whether he’s a “good guy”. But I do understand how people could be saddened or hurt by the news. For some, he was someone they looked to for Godly inpiration and direction and they feel betrayed. That is understandable because it has all happened to us in some form or fashion. We look up to someone, and they disappoint us. It hurts…period. So have some tolerance for them but not for those that judge him and bash him. That’s not acceptable.
If anyone was really understanding what I’ve said then you would know that my concern is not whether he is or isn’t gay, it’s that we, especially American Christians are allowing satan to feed us lies and deceive us into thinking we can rationalize our sins. People want to go to Heaven but they want to do it on their “terms.” However difficult it may be to examine our own lives and sins, we need to do it honestly according to God’s Word. Use whatever translation you want and spew forth whatever knowledge you may have of Greek, Latin, etc. but the Bible is clear about homosexuality, gluttony (that ones for you zee), adultery, etc. You can make ignorant statements such as “I was born this way” or it’s a “mental illness” or it’s “comtemporary politics” but it still doesn’t change anything. It is an an abomination according to God…not Patrick, just as other things clearly stated in the Bible and God will not show mercy on us for living in this manner.
Additionally, if you want to be gay or an adulterer or glutton or anything else, then fine…just stop trying to rationalize it in God’s eyes. Call it like God calls it and admit that you are living in direct opposition to God’s Word and admit to God that’s the decision you have made and you’re willing to answer to Him when the time comes.
A Christian’s life is not defined by a lack of sin, it’s defined by how we continually strive to be more Christ-like in spite of our imperfections. It’s about being cleansed of our old, wicked ways so that people can see the changes and differences that Christ has made in our lives. Christ doesn’t expect perfection but he does expect us to live according to His Word. We are saved by faith but our faith should be reflected in how we live our lives and the works that we do. Works do not save us but our works build fruitful lives that can be used in a powerful way by God. Works can be something we do, i.e., I share the Gospel of Christ with others or by something we don’t do, i.e., engage in homosexual activity or adultery, etc. By denying our fleshy desires, we are strengthened in our faith and obedience to God, thus we increase our fruitfulness.
September 17, 2008 at 5:06 pm. Permalink.
e2tc replied:
Gah – this comment thread is kinda like Frankenstein’s monster, isn’t it?
It’s exhausting to read, and even more exhausting – I’m sure – for Lindsey!
Please, please just give it a rest! We need a break, Lindsey most of all (I think).
September 17, 2008 at 6:17 pm. Permalink.
ken replied:
Chris: How people repent is not the point of my comment. My point was that, at the time these various people had their respective moral failures, the outrage and hostility toward a Christian coming out of the closet appears to me to far exceed any outrage and hostility toward the others who have fallen due to adultry and/or divorce.
The more interesting thing about your comment, though, is all that you left out. You didn’t comment on greed and selfishness. You didn’t comment on the idea that we can call sin sin without being hostile and demeaning. You didn’t comment on the Tony Campolo quote “expressing disapproval for a church who has forgotten how to love people that Jesus will never stop loving.”
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
)
Romans 8:38-39 (ESV – for those keeping score
If God still loves homosexuals, shouldn’t we at least attempt to do the same, whatever we believe about this righteousness of their actions?
September 17, 2008 at 10:06 pm. Permalink.
Kirk replied:
The thing that repeatedly strikes me in these anti-gay comments is the vast ignorance exhibited. Oh sure, you’ve got your concordances all memorized, but you know nothing about human sexuality. Empirical data shows that homosexual behavior is evident *throughout* the animal world…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
…but you stone-throwers keep insisting modern English translations of ancient Greek are more reliable than current scientific facts. Faith is OK, I guess, but denying reality is just plain crazy.
You know what would be cool? What if Boltz revealed that, in a desire to determine whether his fans were truly loving Christians or just dogmatic robots, he decided to try a social experiment by claiming to be gay and then judging the reactions. I’m guessing if he turned his findings into a new record entitled simply “Matthew 7:1″, it would only be met with more of the same. And that’s sad.
September 17, 2008 at 10:26 pm. Permalink.
Top Posts « WordPress.com replied:
[...] Ray Boltz gay and happy! “There is shock and sadness in the Christian community over word that famed Christian music singer Ray Boltz has [...] [...]
September 18, 2008 at 12:03 am. Permalink.
Vicky replied:
While Scripture commands Christians to love, we need to understand that it is not loving to say that something is OK when it is not. God’s Word refers to homosexuality as abomination. Within the context, the word “abomination” basically means something that makes God want to throw up. Could it be that homosexuality is so decidedly detestable to God that His Word doesn’t even mention the subject outside of condemnation? If this is so, who are we to say otherwise? Also, could it be that it’s not that God is being so judgmental, but that God, being a God of love, knows what is good for us and what hurts us? After all, God knows all, and it may be that He, in His love, wants all the best for His children.
September 18, 2008 at 2:25 am. Permalink.
heather replied:
being gay is a sin!! in 1 cor.6:9 says” do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters not adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” you cannot be a christian and be gay! for we have all fallen short of the glory of God. But if you repent and are baptized, God will forgive everyone of their sins.
September 18, 2008 at 8:11 pm. Permalink.
davidjanec replied:
Most of the times.. what others believe and say have nothing to do with you and your life. Being gay is being gay…Heather. But then again, I doubt you’ll ever understand that. I’m not gay, but really don’t care who is. No kingdom in my world, just friends and family. Move forward Ray. And for the christians here that appreciate life and souls… I wish you all a light of understanding and appreciation. You never know who’s standing next to you!
September 19, 2008 at 5:35 am. Permalink.
A Dunkirk Resident replied:
I personally know Ray Boltz. He started his career in the Methodist Church in Dunkirk, Indiana. He was always ashamed to menion he was from Dunkirk because it was a small town. He did not start out in a little country church like his bio states. In fact he and his family caused so much of a rift in the Dunkirk Methodist church that it split the congregation. Now he comes out as homosexual. He knew the score he knew he would not make his millions if the truth were known. Now he wants to retire. He already has the big bucks no use maintaining a lie anymore. He is a hypocrite pure and simple. He know the life style he leads is wrong. He know what the Bible states. He was not raised that way and he know the difference from right and wrong. The bible says to brush the dust from your feet and walk away from those who commit sin and are not repeatent. I have done so from Ray. Ray, I knew you when you were just a boy, we went to school togeather. I knew you as a teenager when you attended the Methodist Church in Dunkirk. Pastor Tobias taught you better and you know it.Don’t glorify yourself now Ray it was all a lie.
A Dunkirk Resident
September 20, 2008 at 9:43 pm. Permalink.
nearlynormalized replied:
All the bibles in hand could not prevent what his body and soul needed. Blame it on the devil and get on with it. Strut your stuff and know God still loves you.
September 21, 2008 at 1:07 am. Permalink.
normbetland replied:
Here is the thing: its not that we are trying to divide, but when one no longer holds the ideals of the group, they themselves are no longer a part of that group. I’m not saying that his coming out is a bad thing, or a sin, but when he decides to be unrepentant of his sin and is now attempting same-sex dating relationships, that is where the problem lies. As Christians, we are not to tolerate sinfulness, especially in our own ranks.
If we act and behave the same way is the children of the world, how will they see that Christ in is? How will they see that we have something different, someone who can change our lives and release us from the bondage of sin?
September 21, 2008 at 1:18 am. Permalink.
Weekly Fruit Salad - αριθμό δεκαέξι « SanityFound’s Rambling’s replied:
[...] not a sin to be different nor is it the The Death Penalty some make it out to be, so what, Ray Boltz is gay and happy! yes go put the word gay in that dictionary… don’t be surprised if it says happy. [...]
September 21, 2008 at 9:36 pm. Permalink.
EraZer Head replied:
well, religious people should come up finally with the fact that whatever they think and believe is nto true. once they believed the earth is flat, and left handed people are evil, and now they still think homosexuals are perverts. come on, take a look around! do not judge others, accept people the way they are, and respect others. your jesus was kind to asll creatures (at least you say so), so did he teach u that much hating and prejudging others?
open your eyes, people.
September 22, 2008 at 8:28 am. Permalink.
Becky replied:
“well, religious people should come up finally with the fact that whatever they think and believe is nto true. once they believed the earth is flat”
The Bible actually stated that the earth was round before men believed it to be true. I just thought that was a funny argument and had to comment on it.
I think there are 2 separate debates going on here. One is whether there is an absolute truth or relative truth and the other is whether we should love those who disagree with us like we love those who do.
As far as truth goes, the Bible is the absolute truth. Whether it agrees with your lifestyle or not. When I read it I find much room for improvement for myself and that is who I should be primarily concerned with fixing.
Secondly, we are to love God with everything and love others as ourselves. Of course this doesn’t mean condoning sin. I love my son but I don’t let him do whatever he wants because I love him. However it also doesn’t mean we ostracize or behave cruelly to others. I struggle with sin just like everyone else and I don’t want to be treated that way. I want others to show me the love of God and I want to show it to others.
Ultimately, I don’t have to answer for anyone but me and my children. I am not the sin police. All I can do is love people and pray for them and live my life as best as I know how for Jesus.
September 22, 2008 at 4:36 pm. Permalink.
Heather replied:
Guys stop saying “I think if God made us gay it ok” Dont think. read. It is not. I was delivered and let me tell you. going back into the “closet” was much more of a weight off then coming out. Plus I lost much more earthly things and relationships when I was delivered.
It is wrong. There is no thinking. Just reading. Read the word. I wanted it to be ok for 13 years. It just isn’t. Do I hate Ray…no…I will pray for him. It is a hard thing to beat
September 22, 2008 at 6:37 pm. Permalink.
Tip of the Hat/Wag of the Finger « random babble… replied:
[...] to emphatic asterisk, whose take on this was very kind and non-judgmental. I really wish that more followers of [...]
September 22, 2008 at 7:24 pm. Permalink.
bohemianprose replied:
Ok – Heather made a good point and seemed honest about this. I’ll disagree that his music has done good… yes it has I am sure, however it does a huge disservice to the community when someone who has followed in Jesus’ foot steps turns aside.
We could debate for a million years weather people are born gay (my stance is that they are not) weather we like the answer or not here is the TRUTH… sexuality is a choice, I’ll explain.
We choose to sleep with someone sexually as we would choose what we should have for dinner. It is a choice of freedom, we choose this. No one forces you to sleep with someone, so then the issue is about our feelings not our bodies.
Do we choose how we feel???? Not entirely. Feeling a certain way is not sinful in it’s self – unless that feeling is lust, in which case it is written that “women exchanged the natural use of a man for the use of a woman and men burned within them selves receiving one another within them”
You can feel how you want, but when it comes to the act of sex of living a gay lifestyle or lusting after a person or thing we (as Christians) clearly read and understand that this is called both idolatry and fornication (modern terms worship and sex) bottom line for a person who clearly knows the Word about this and choose to live in it is sad, not that perhaps he has sinned and slipped up or had an oh oops moment, but has clearly said I am choosing to live it out – the bible says their must come first the “great apostasy” (falling away) before Jesus comes we should be watching my self included.
September 22, 2008 at 8:30 pm. Permalink.
bohemianprose replied:
a response to allie:
What is the bible for? It clearly say don’t hag out with the sexual amoral (not of this world) no, but the sexually amoral Christian. So then are we being judgmental because we are actually trying to follow the word’s of the apostles and of Jesus or are we doing just that attempting to follow? I think too many Christians read a verse of the bible and say I like it and use it but leave the rest….
Does this mean we don’t love these people? No. But if the word is so clear about how and what we ought to do, then shouldn’t we be trying to follow it?
September 22, 2008 at 8:37 pm. Permalink.
Really replied:
If you’re going to go all literal interpretation of the Bible, may I remind “Judge not, that ye be not judged.”
Considering Jesus loved his persecutors, I think he could accept a man who engages consentually with men. Just sayin’.
September 22, 2008 at 8:40 pm. Permalink.
EraZer Head replied:
people who are still obsessed with something which is written 2000 years ago, sth which is against rationalism, nature, human rights, science and people who live their life based on such thing ok thats their problem not mine!
but please dont say “open your eyes” to others, you only make other laugh more about ya!
September 23, 2008 at 1:00 pm. Permalink.
heather 01 replied:
I cant believe how all you people think that it is “ok” to be gay! The media is full of HUGE LIES!! peoples, it is a SIN! God destroyed Sodom and Gammorah for their wickedness and perversion. God deals with sin just as strongly as he did back then. Liberals think that it is just an “alternative way of life ” or they use the excuse that “God made me that way”. i am saying now, if that were the case how come God didnt create Adam and Steve? No, he made them male and female. And one more thing, people say ” dont judge or lest you be judged”.We as people cant judge the motives of a persons but, we can judge by their action. and when that action contradicts what the bible says then it is wrong. Overall, we all sin but God is a God of mercy and grace and he will forgive us if we REPENT.
September 23, 2008 at 10:05 pm. Permalink.
Tracy replied:
Another poster criticized taking the Bible literally. If it is not taken literally, albeit in context, then why believe anything it says? Why do some say the Bible was literally declaring Jesus to be the Messiah and the only way to the heavenly Father, but then say this same Bible is only being figurative in terms of its definition of sin? The answer is obvious: it is easier for these people to say certain parts of Bible are not meant to be taken literally than it is to admit that they are sinners in need of repentence. But all true prophets of the Bible taught repentence…and though we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God, that is no excuse to engange in a sinful lifestyle that is in direct disobedience to God and His Word. Repentance (turning from sin), resulting in a change from an ungodly lifestyle, is what being born-again with the Spirit of God is all about. If one is putting his or her own sexual preference over God’s Word, than once has to wonder if that person has ever truly belived in the transforming power of Jesus Christ and is really worshipping their own false-sexual idol god. This also applies to the many heterosexual Christians that are having adulterous affairs, often within their own congregations! It makes no difference if you are born with homosexual feelings, or heterosexual feelings…sin is sin, and it becomes sin when we act on ungodly feelings. Again, we were all born into sin, but we have to CHOOSE to follow Christ and His righteousness. Jesus said that there would be many imposters, but that we would know then by their fruit. It seems Ray Boltz has now decided that he is a homosexual first, and a “Christian” second…now that he can retire very wealthy from other Christians that feel they have been deceived by him. What a shame.
September 24, 2008 at 12:34 am. Permalink.
EraZer Head replied:
i see there r still adults who believe such funny stories such sodom and gomorrah which can only entertain 5 year old children (stories like cinderellah or little mermaid with less educating and usefull cont5ents actually!) but dont u ever ask yourself why this god of yours did distroy sodom but does not want to distroy cities like L.A?!! sounds like your god has forgotten to send miracles for his faithful christians since 2000 years ago… maybe he has forgotten where on map the earth was (space is so wide, u know!) andwhat if he is dead?! man i am so worried about him, thats really questioning isnt it?!
September 24, 2008 at 8:06 am. Permalink.
Tracy replied:
>>but dont u ever ask yourself why this god of yours did distroy sodom but does not want to distroy cities like L.A?!!>>
It is because God is a God of grace and mercy that we have not yet seen his judgment. Regardless, the day of God’s final judgement and wrath against sin is coming.
Joel 2:13
Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity.
Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgement will be revealed.
September 24, 2008 at 11:50 am. Permalink.
KAY replied:
People, it doesn’t matter what you and I think. The only thing that matters is what the Word of God says. REPENT!
September 25, 2008 at 5:07 am. Permalink.
borntwice replied:
To condemn Ray because of his alleged sexual orientation, is the equivalent of the Pharisees condemning the woman caught in the act of adultery. What did Jesus say? He said (roughly paraphrasing) “Let he who has no sin cast the first stone.”
We, as Christians, need to repent of our pride and conceit in dealing with this issue. I believe, based upon my experiences and conversations, that the vast majority of Christians have no idea what their Christian brothers and sisters struggle with, who have same-sex attraction.
Those of you who have been quick to condemn and quote scripture, I believe you need to ask God to search your hearts, to see if there be and wicked way in you. Don’t harden your heart on the day of God’s visitation. Don’t categorize those who struggle with same-sex attractions in a special, lower category of “sinfulness”.
I am so thankful that the heart of the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is not condemning toward those who sruggle with same-sex attraction. Father loves us, and He doesn’t treat same-sex attraction any different than any other aberration. In fact, I believe that Father has a tender heart toward those who have struggled for years with same sex attraction.
It is the World, and the religious who persecute the homosexual; the Father never persecutes the homosexual. If you see a brother caught in a “sin”, gently try to help restore him, lest you yourself be tempted.
Why are so many quick to jump to condemnation of a man they don’t even know? Could it be it is because they have sin in their own lives which they hate, but hide in secret? Or could it be that they believe that their sin is of a lesser magnitude than same-sex attraction?
Sin, by the way, in the context I am referring to it, is simply “not doing something the way Jesus would do it”. By referring to “sin”, I am not trying to conjure up ideas of Pharisaical self-righteousness. Any of us who is born of God knows our own individual proclivities toward “sin”.
What concerns me is those who would claim to represent the heart of God, who are quick to quote scripture in an attempt to condemn someone. What if the man struggled with internet pornography? Would you still have the same harsh words to write against him?
I plead with you, take a look at your hearts, before God, and let Him correct any wrong attitudes you have. Judge yourselves, so that He doesn’t have to judge you. Reach out in love to your homosexual neighbors and loved ones – it might just work!
Since hatred, malice, and rejection haven’t worked, maybe we should try something different – love. Just a thought. Oh, incidentally, count me in among those who struggle with same-sex attraction (though I am also attracted to the opposite sex as well).
As Jesus said, (roughly paraphrasing), what is in the heart of a person is what comes out of their mouth (or their keyboard, pen, etc.) Please, please, have a change of mind at once, if you have been too quick to judge the homosexual.
Don’t put yourself in a position to be tested and temped by some “sin”, simply because you were too quick to condemn a man. Please, repent and receive the grace of God. Please, have a change of mind at once, and acknowledge that you know next to nothing of the issue of same-sex attraction, so that you may receive mercy in time of need.
September 26, 2008 at 6:04 am. Permalink.
african brother replied:
to the pro gay
thank you for showing me that am supposed to love all indiscriminately and unconditionally
to the anti gay
“if anyone asks you to explain why you believe as you do, then be ready to explain but in a gentle and respectful manner”(somewhere in the book of Peter)
to the christians
simply love. however, the bible should be your standard and should form your mind set. not popular opinion.not research,not self rightousness and definately not the world.
“work out YOUR OWN salvation with fear and trembling” not by what ray boltz has done.
to ray boltz
i value honesty.thats a good place to start.Jesus pledged allegience to you when you accepted Him and is there for you.
September 26, 2008 at 9:42 am. Permalink.
african brother replied:
to the guy that said that some animals are gay….well, they also eat their young, and eat their puke and pee to mark their homes, do we???? i think not coz our creator made us different
to they guy who kept talking about obesity in the same breadth as homosexuality.am afraid you are wrong because one is a lifestyle and the other is a consequence of a lifestyle. just like pregnancy can be a consequence of adultery/fornication, pregnancy is not a sin.i dare say its a blessing.homosexuality is a lifestyle complete with its own practises whearas a fat man could simply be someone who has a lot of fat in his diet and is not a glutton/greedy. i know a lot of africans who could be rated as overwight coz of their BMI but they are not gluttons.
September 26, 2008 at 10:16 am. Permalink.
Cathy replied:
We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God says the Bible. Ray Boltz is a sinner just like each and everyone of us on this board and he needs our prayers and support. With that said the Bible is VERY VERY clear on homosexuality and how destestable it is in the eyes of God.
What was Sodom and Gommorah about? Genesis 19? Gang rape or not, consensual or not it is still the act of homosexuality that God detests. This is just one of many passages in the Bible and frankly we need to be using the Bible as our source of information and not “online blogs”
I think someone earlier posted that God loves the sinner but not the sin and that is true! HE LOVES EVERYONE AND WISHES EVERYONE TO REPENT!
September 26, 2008 at 7:07 pm. Permalink.
shawnbarr replied:
What a sad situation with Boltz. I do hope the Christian world will pray for him and also exhort him. Remember that we are called to exhort one another when we see a brother in sin. Here’s a fictional conversation between Ray Boltz and Jesus…
http://shawnbarr.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/ray-boltz-talks-to-jesus/
September 26, 2008 at 10:17 pm. Permalink.
Tracy replied:
borntwice said:
>>What concerns me is those who would claim to represent the heart of God, who are quick to quote scripture in an attempt to condemn someone. What if the man struggled with internet pornography? Would you still have the same harsh words to write against him?>>
Yes, as I stated in my original post. As far as condemnation goes, Ray Boltz acceptance of his lifestyle against the clear Word of God makes him stand condemed…not anything anybody else says. When you are truly washed clean of God and reborn again, then the homosexuality is to be left behind and a new identity as a Christian is to emerge. There is no reconciling the two, as they are opposed to each other as sin is to righteousness, and darkness is to light.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
September 30, 2008 at 3:22 am. Permalink.
David Roberts replied:
“just last year in March, the director of the Human Genome Project, Dr. Francis Collins, said this: homosexuality is not hardwired. There is no gay gene. We mapped the human genome. We now know there is no genetic cause for homosexuality.”
It is unfortunate that this quote keeps being repeated. Collins never said it, and further disagrees with it. The details on how it got started, Collins’ own response to it and the apology of one of the writers who repeated it early on are here.
Please feel free to correct this where you see it.
October 6, 2008 at 3:34 am. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
David: Thank you SO MUCH for the link! I knew from past conversations that such claims are false, but never had annotations to back it up.
Thanks again.
October 6, 2008 at 12:38 pm. Permalink.
christian submissions replied:
christian submissions…
Some weblog software programs, such as WordPress, Movable Type and Community Server, support automatic pingbacks where all the links…
October 17, 2008 at 11:46 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
@ Robert: God made mankind in his image BEFORE the fall. Obviously we are all born with a predilection for sin that is not in God’s image, is it?
compassion should be the rule of thumb, not condemnation.
June 3, 2009 at 12:33 am. Permalink.