More on Ray Boltz and Homosexuality
Yesterday I wrote a quick post just to get a few things out there, so to speak.
Today I want to address a few things more specifically. First: let’s take any talk of whether or not homosexuality, homosexual acts, or being “openly gay” ought to be endorsed by the church off the table. We’re not going to discuss that. That, dear readers, is a topic for a different day.
Now, let’s talk about the initial reaction to the revelation that Ray Boltz is now openly gay. What have I seen? Shock, sorrow, anger, feelings of betrayal, proclamations that Ray Boltz is no longer Christian, professions that his work is of no value, requests that his dove awards be taken back, angry statements that he ought to be openly condemned by the church… I’m not going to link to any of this because I don’t want to give the people who might get ad revenue the money.
Suffice it to say that in some circles Ray Boltz isn’t just going to get hung out to dry, he’s going to be flayed open and set upon by ravens.
The question is not, “should we endorse his decision to accept himself as gay”, the question is, “should we be silent while this man is publicly humiliated in the midst of what must be an immensely personal struggle and a hard adjustment for his family?”
The question isn’t, “is homosexuality okay”- it’s, “is this kind of behavior by Christians to be tolerated?”
Obviously a comparison between adultery or gambling or another personal vice would just irritate those who do believe that homosexuality isn’t inherently sinful, so I won’t make such a comparison. All I will ask is if this revelation never became public- how would Boltz be remembered? Wouldn’t he still be respected? His songs still used? His work still appreciated? Wouldn’t people still be “feeling” God in his music?
Does the fact that he is gay change that? Aren’t all people sinful? Don’t all people have things about them which God would change?
We should be praying for Ray and his family, praying for him to continue to seek God and find God’s love, praying for good mentors and apostles to teach him, praying for his work to continue to bring people to God. We should be respecting the fact that he has chosen honesty, and honoring his openness. Even if we are uncomfortable with the outcome, the honest truth is that at the very least Boltz has chosen an honorable path by choosing transparency and choosing to honestly confront his sexuality. We may not like the side he has land on- but everyone should be able to appreciate the fact that honesty is preferable to lying.
We shouldn’t be cruel.
We should be loving.
We shouldn’t be hurling insults.
We should be lovingly calling for God’s heart to be sought.
We shouldn’t be acting out of anger.
We should be showing temperance.
We don’t need to say, “Gay is Okay”
We need to say, “Everyone should seek God’s truth for their lives.”
End of story.
Hayden Tompkins replied:
Ok. So I looked at the comments from yesterday and then reread this post. Woo. And there is something that I find TRULY FASCINATING…
The child molestation angle interesting. Why? Because it first assumes that the molestation was same sex. Secondly, it assumes that homosexuals (maybe not all) are continuing to molest children because there are still homosexuals in existence.
However, what it boils down to is: Pedophiles create homosexuals who become pedophiles who create more homosexuals.
There are just so many problems with those assumptions, I don’t know where to begin. However, if what this person wrote is a reflection of how people TRULY FEEL in the mainstream Christian community, then I FINALLY understand why people are so homophobic.
If you believe that all homosexuals are child molesters, then – yes – you would feel that they are depraved and the worst kind of sinner. Homosexuality (or pedophilia) is then the UBERsin.
Otherwise, it makes absolutely no sense to be as fervently anti-homosexual as people are. It makes no sense to elevate homosexuality above all the other sins.
September 16, 2008 at 3:12 pm. Permalink.
bridgeout replied:
“proclamations that Ray Boltz is no longer Christian…” THOSE words always seem to hurt the deepest… when we are declared no longer a Christian for being gay. What happened to “no one can take them from my hand”? (John 10:27-30)
I heard about all this with Ray here first!
September 16, 2008 at 4:48 pm. Permalink.
infamousqbert replied:
bridgeout: i think the assumption is that they were never “really” a christian to begin with. that we could know more about their heart and their faith than they could and/or that they were flat out lying all along.
September 16, 2008 at 5:13 pm. Permalink.
josephudo replied:
true that we all sin but to push your sins on children, adults and society in general surely angers the Lord. People who push adultry on society are just a bad though.
September 16, 2008 at 5:21 pm. Permalink.
Ed replied:
No matter what one’s opinion says, it specifically says in the Bible, the accepted Word of God in the Christian faith, that homosexuality is an abomination before God. This phrase is not left to interpretation like many things in the Bible, and there are other phrases that show homosexuality is wrong. I personally believe that it is a mental illness, and until I see evidence to the contrary, I will continue to see it that way. I have known a lot of gay and lesbians in my life, and the last word I would use to describe them is “happy”. I have seen those that try to make you think they are happy, but deep down, they are miserable in life. That would fall in line with living with a mental illness that is untreated. I do not fear them, I pity them.
September 16, 2008 at 5:34 pm. Permalink.
infamousqbert replied:
ed, i would suggest watching For the Bible Tells Me So. it’s an honest, deep discussion of the very passages you’re referencing. biblical scholars, both christian and jewish have studied these passages and find a LOT of room for interpretation. you have to remember that the words we’re reading now have been translated over and over and over again and the word “abomination” is not necessarily the only, nor the best, translation of the original words.
also, you’re not the last word on someone else’s happiness. a lot of the pain found in the LGBT community comes from what is foisted on us from the outside. personally, i’m happier now than i’ve ever been. my family is supportive, my girlfriend is amazing, and my life is finally on what feels like the right track.
we don’t need your pity. we need your thoughtful investigation of your own judgments and what has informed your view of this issue. read everything, not just what already supports your convictions. get involved in a PFLAG group. volunteer at an AIDS center. do something to actually get to know all those people who you pity right now. you might find that they’re a lot more like you than you thought.
September 16, 2008 at 5:53 pm. Permalink.
Jennifer Bayd replied:
“…respecting the fact that he has chosen honesty, and honoring his openness.”
He should be respected / honored because of his dignity as a human being. The problem is that, disclaimers notwithstanding, this whole topic is inorexably tied to whether active homosexual activity (note – not homosexual tendency) is sinful. It can’t be extracted and left “for another day” here. In fact, it is the most relevant point. If something is sinful, then how does one honor the sinner’s openness about committing the sin without simultaneously condoning the sin? Tricky.
“We need to say, ‘Everyone should seek God’s truth for their lives.’”
Sure, but remember that truth, by definition, is not subjective.
September 16, 2008 at 6:32 pm. Permalink.
Righteous Right replied:
[comment redacted by moderator]
Lindsey says: Seriously, kid, if I were your mom I’d spank you so hard you wouldn’t sit right for a month. Hate speech = NOT ALLOWED.
September 16, 2008 at 7:56 pm. Permalink.
wvhillcountry replied:
Lindsey, you sure do get some interesting readers. I was going to respond to a certain post but I figure it will be dedacted and no one else will know what I am talking about.
“We shouldn’t be cruel.
We should be loving.
We shouldn’t be hurling insults.
We should be lovingly calling for God’s heart to be sought.
We shouldn’t be acting out of anger.
We should be showing temperance.
We don’t need to say, “Gay is Okay”
We need to say, “Everyone should seek God’s truth for their lives.”
End of story.”
Amen!
September 16, 2008 at 8:03 pm. Permalink.
wvhillcountry replied:
Ed, I am gay, not mentally ill. And the DSM3R does not include homosexuality in it’s listing of mental illnesses. I am gay, not miserable. Look up the definition. However, when I was trying to be the proper hetero girl, I was miserable.
So my being gay (happy) is dependant on my accepting myself as gay (In Love with a wonderful woman). Thankfully, you don’t have the final say on my happiness. To quote a friend, I am a happy little Homo.
September 16, 2008 at 8:08 pm. Permalink.
faemom replied:
I think you’re right when you say we should be loving. We can’t cast the first stone. We can’t assume what God REALLY thinks. So I think we should always side with the belief of love. Being openly gay does not hurt any one. Therefore we cannot judge or condemn.
September 16, 2008 at 8:38 pm. Permalink.
anita replied:
Wow. This is fascinating.
September 16, 2008 at 8:40 pm. Permalink.
Sarahjane replied:
I was reading some of the comments from yesterday’s post and this one really makes one wonder.
“Please pray that God will remove the blindness from off his eyes. This is so sad.”
Just maybe the fact that he finally accepted his ‘Gayness’ is the answer to his years of prayers asking, “Why?” that he found in his heart. It is so joyful to live your life with integrity. Psalm 84:11.
Sarah
September 16, 2008 at 8:50 pm. Permalink.
zeemanb replied:
Nothing to really add here, just wanted to say it was nice to find this blog. When blogging about similar topics I tend to gravitate towards profane stream of consciousness a la Sam Kinison. So it’s nice to read someone with a similar viewpoint who can bring an air of calm to the same subject matter. One of these days I’ll be far enough removed from the ol’ Assemblies of God to act like a grownup…..
September 16, 2008 at 9:15 pm. Permalink.
Stephanie replied:
Wow, this is fascinating.
September 16, 2008 at 9:37 pm. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Anita and Stephanie: You must teach me the vulcan mind meld, you must you must!
Everyone else: I promise to respond to comments.
…
Later.
September 16, 2008 at 9:44 pm. Permalink.
Linda Lee replied:
ray is my new hero. i wish i could do what he did. but the reason i’m still having to hide is because of the backlash i know i would face. call me a coward but i’m not ready. i guess ray knew God was ready, but i’m not ready yet. i know God will make me ready someday, but i know its not His timing yet. its so hard, knowing i’m lying. but isn’t there room to lie in order to protect one’s livelihood? i wrestle back and forth. i want to be honest but it would destroy everything that God has called me to. and then the lingering question: why would He call me into a vocational ministry surrounded by people who think that who i am is an abomination?
i hope that someday, someone will write this same thing about me:
“the honest truth is that at the very least Boltz has chosen an honorable path by choosing transparency and choosing to honestly confront his sexuality. We may not like the side he has land on- but everyone should be able to appreciate the fact that honesty is preferable to lying.”
i wish more people held to this belief and reaction, but i’m afraid the majority of people will be ridiculous and want to destroy him. its true, the saying about how the church is the only group that shoots its wounded.
September 16, 2008 at 10:18 pm. Permalink.
confessionsofaclosetcase replied:
omg, i was so happy when i heard that Ray Boltz is gay. i used one of his songs in a christmas production last year and was profoundly blessed by it. to know that he is gay all along further slams home the truth that homosexuals can still love God and be blessed by Him and connect with Him. THANK YOU for this post. it is sorely needed:)
josh (don’t mind if i link you!)
September 17, 2008 at 1:11 am. Permalink.
Stephanie replied:
The Vulcan Mind Meld?
I’m sorry Lindsey, I was going to respond and say more, but that’s all I had time for at that moment.
Anyway, I’m not sure what Anita was thinking but I was thinking it fascinates me to see how EAGER and oh so willing some folks are to talk about the topic homosexuality, giving their opinions, attempting to quote the bible, yet these same folks aren’t so eager or willing to address the point of the post.
How hard it is for some to ask “how can I respond in love?”.
Faemom- I think you said that rather well. I think we should always side with the belief of love. Well said.
Great post Lindsey, truly.
September 17, 2008 at 1:32 am. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
confessionsofaclosetcase: Welcome to my blog!
Stephanie: No need to apologize, it was just SO funny to me to have two great women give the same comment in just a few moments, totally unconnected.
And I am getting really quite irritated/amused with the fact that so many people appear to be commenting after only reading the tags. Humanity. There’s nothing like it!
September 17, 2008 at 1:38 am. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Linda Lee: His story is his story, and yours is yours. If God was involved in prompting Ray into openness, I’m sure it was with good reason- and if your heart tells you to keep secrets close, there must be a reason for that as well.
The only reason you have to grieve for the state of your life is if you truly do not believe you are living the life God wants for you. If you DO believe that, release your grief and find the kind of pleasure that comes from obedience. I strongly believe that holiness is it’s own reward, painful as it might sometimes seem.
zeemanb: Not that there’s anything inherently wrong with a “profane stream of consciousness”.
Welcome to my blog, I’m glad it reached you.
September 17, 2008 at 1:42 am. Permalink.
anita replied:
And even better, Stephanie described my exact thoughts when I made my comment as well.
I wanted to say more than I did but I couldn’t think of a way of doing it that wouldn’t just add a sprinkle of kerosene to the blaze.
September 17, 2008 at 1:51 am. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Jennifer Bayd: Thanks for the comment and taking the time to read- and you’re right- truth is ultimately VERY Objective. There is being in line with God’s will, and not. Period.
The problem is that God’s will isn’t often easily interpreted- God is eternal, omniscient, so nearly completely outside Man’s understanding. Throughout thousands of years we’ve thought God has said an awful lot of things, and we’ve been often wrong. I’m not so proud as to think I TRULY understand God, which is why I am open to the belief that I may be completely wrong, and I only call people to account when they have chosen me to walk beside them.
Ray Boltz has not chosen the entire Christian community to walk beside him. They have no right to call him to account, no matter HOW obvious his sin might seem. And you are right about human dignity. So right.
Ed: The Bible also clearly says that God hates divorce. Yet we rationalize that one daily.
Hayden: It’s homophobia, plain and simple. Most “good” Christians don’t know homosexuals, and it’s easy to hate what you don’t know. It’s easy to assume it’s all about the sex and purely “sexual deviancy”, and then they slippery slope argument says “if they are deviant in way one they’ll be deviant in way two and three, as well”. Of course this fear could be easily cured by knowing a few gay people, but the fear itself makes that hard to arrange. *sigh*
September 17, 2008 at 1:51 am. Permalink.
Lindsey replied:
Anita: Thanks for clearing that one up! I’ve been trying to find a way to address my own frustration with the stated phenomena without tossing fuel on the blaze. I don’t know yet what I’ll do.
I guess I’m mostly just glad that my little posts on the topic have gotten so much attention (over three thousand views! ACK!) and that there’s a moderated voice in the discussion.
I just never expected it to be mine!
EVERYONE ELSE: I really, really, really wish I had the time to respond to every comment individually, but I just don’t. Much love to everyone for putting themselves out there, even if I totally and in all ways disagree with you.
September 17, 2008 at 1:56 am. Permalink.
Katherine replied:
Ed:
I used to get really offended when someone suggested that being gay was a mental illness. Not so much anymore, but I wish you wouldn’t think this way. I’m gay, quite happy and well-adjusted. Now I’ll admit that The Closet Years were quite tumultuous because society’s view of gay people (and specifically very degrading and stigmatizing views such as that we are mentally ill) was too great a thing to handle in my teen years, but that has all changed drastically.
Secondly, I think that the definition people are subscribing to when using the word ‘homosexuality’ needs to be clarified. There are two definitions:
1. Homosexuality- Having or possessing a sexual attraction to one’s own gender. Related to ‘homosexual’, which could be person who is attracted to his/her own gender.
and
2. Homosexuality- Engaging in sexual activity with one’s own gender. Related to ‘homosexual’, which could be person who engages in sexual relations with their own gender.
Ok, no one can seem to keep the definition they are using when saying “homosexuality is a sin/abomination” straight. And the problem is that I suspect they are using definition #1 when refering to homosexuality and/or a homosexual person as sinful. There is a problem with this. To say “homosexuality is a sin” while using the first definition is 100% false and will never be true because a sexual attraction to one’s own gender is simply a lust/temptation (as heterosexuality is also a lust/temptation) and being human and having a temptation is not sinful. Being a homosexual because one has an attraction to their own gender is not a sin. The Bible does not speak about being homosexually attracted, only of the actions or activity.
Now, the only thing up for debate is whether or not ‘homosexuality’ by definition #2 is a sin in all contexts. And that’s too long of a talk to go into.
It just seems that no one really knows which definition is being used (especially the average layperson or Christian) and this need to be clarified. It causes too much confusion and gives be the wrong idea that having a temptation is sinful.
September 17, 2008 at 2:03 am. Permalink.
Vanessa replied:
Lindsey: I really want to respond here, respond to some of the comments that to me, sound not so nice toward a person like myself who is self-identified as lesbian, but nonetheless, I feel the need to state a couple of things. First of all, I am a lesbian, among other things, but also a Christian. I am proud and happy to feel loved and connected to my God. I admire and have full respect for the teachings and workings of Jesus Christ, and his focus on love, the love, that is what he was most about. That is what we are talking about here when we talk about affectional orientation, which I purposely use instead of sexual orientation, which seems to take people right to sexual acts. Affectional orientation; who it is that I am compelled to love; for me, it has always been women, not men. Some could say that is not genetic, but there are many more studies that state that there is a genetic link. ANd believe me, i would not actively choose to feel this way if given the choice; it has had many hardships….. As far as homosexuality as a mental illness, nope, it has officially been removed from the DSM manual, for the listing of all mental health diagnoses, for over thirty years; that just does not float. ANd, depressive moods and anxious feelings does not a mental illness make…. there are many responses that persons have, gay and straight alike, to stressors in their lives. And, many stressors that occur in our lives are being told that we are an abomination; that we are sinning against God; that we are participating in a sinful lifestyle; that it is all about sex; that we are all just child molesters or recruiters (and actually, there are several studies that concur that the overwhelming majority of pedophiles are heterosexual in their orientation.. …seriously…..
I wish many of you that feel so compelled to tell us how sinful we are and to be concerned with saving our souls, lived close enough to me to come to a viewing of the movie mentioned in one of the comments above; “For the Bible Tells Me So”; I bought my own copy several months ago, have watched it twice myself, and have shown it to members of my church, with more showings in store… it really is a balanced view of the topic, in documentary format. REAL PEOPLE, with real stories…… It is well worth the watch. Also, as a resource, I would also recommend http://www.soulforce.org, a website committed to persons who are struggling with their affectional orientation and their faith; who have been spiritually wounded by their home churches….. it is for those of you with questions as well, as long as you respect the safety of the space for others…..
Sorry to go on so long for someone who wasn’t sure WHAT to say Lindsey, just one more thing…
I will be posting about this on my own blog very soon, maybe sooner after this, Lindsey, you have inspired me…. Of all completed teen suicides, ONE THIRD are thought to be youths who were struggling with their sexual identity issues. What have we not done as a society, as a spiritual entity, to save these youths from thinking that was their only option? Thousands are thrown out by their families; beaten by their peers; and not defended by their school personnel. There needs to be more compassion and understanding about this topic……
September 17, 2008 at 2:40 am. Permalink.
rbrosmer replied:
“We should be praying for Ray and his family, praying for him to continue to seek God and find God’s love, praying for good mentors and apostles to teach him, praying for his work to continue to bring people to God.”
The question isn’t whether God should accept gays, but the answer is definitely that gays should accept God? Sounds kind of backwards.
September 18, 2008 at 10:16 pm. Permalink.
Taskis replied:
It’s always struck me that the characteristic an all-powerful creator God would be likely to possess would be intelligence.
A lot of the most fervent Bible literalists suggest as much by their use of the term ‘Intelligent Design’ when arguing against evolution.
Given that we assume God to have intelligence, it beats me, it really does, how some people can then give Him so little credit for it: that God can’t change His views and opinions; that God can’t judge each individual on their merits; that God must go through the same routine over and over like a mindless automaton. We assume as well that God, with all that power, is still somehow limited to using but one channel to make His feelings known to us. And no – it’s not my intention there to say “ignore the Bible”; but if one part of it tells us to love our neighbour and we read another part as telling us to stone him or her to death, then we surely have to ask ourselves whether we’re reading it right?
September 18, 2008 at 11:32 pm. Permalink.
barryweber replied:
It’s a sociological and psychological truism that those who are enslaved to their own egos are the quickest to search for those they are “better” than.
Billy Graham stated years ago how very human it as to holler most loudly about those ‘sins’ by which we are not personally affected. Talking loudly about the ‘abomination’ of homosexuality while not also condemning the eating of shellfish or the mixing fabrics one wears, is a so-convenient way of self-editing the Bible to give feelings of superiority over sin to some.
It is also evident that many of those who deride homosexuals most vigorously and quickly are doing some major repressing/denial of such urges in themselves. When I hear someone red-faced and spitting vitriol about gay people, I think..hmmm..??
September 19, 2008 at 12:04 am. Permalink.
shawnbarr replied:
You suggest the questions is:
“should we be silent while this man is publicly humiliated in the midst of what must be an immensely personal struggle and a hard adjustment for his family?”
Ray is the one who made the issue public (?) Thus, why should he be surprised that everyone is writing about it? I’m actually surprised by the tone of most blogs. Many, many of them are about praying for him and exhorting him in Christian love. Yes there are the few that say, “Ray should burn in hell,” but those are far and few between.
I’ve written an article titled, “Ray Boltz Talks With Jesus,” which you and your readers might be interested in.
http://shawnbarr.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/ray-boltz-talks-to-jesus/
September 27, 2008 at 5:17 am. Permalink.